I'm open to see 'one' of these many scriptures.

"Then the scape-goat was led away into the wilderness and put to death by being thrown down a rocky precipice." (Jewish Encyclopedia LINK)

Yes, I realize that is what Isaiah said but there is still no evidence that he satisfied the sin sacrifices that were burnt and done inside the Temple.  Isaiah's message here is much more in line with the goat sent to Azazel. 

Why do you assume this is a 'teaching'?  This is just me looking at the scriptures and asking a question.  I don't know how asking questions about the requirements from scripture is some how 'not biblical.' Quite frankly NO ONE has taught me to ask this question.  I agree Jesus fits several things from the Torah but I do not see him fulfilling the sin sacrifice that was done inside the Temple which was burnt.  Leviticus is quite clear and maticulous about how the sin sacrifices were to be done. 

Yes this lines up with the scape goat.  The sins of the people were placed upon the goats head and the goat was removed outside the camp (ie to be cut off) and to be separated (like Azazel was with G-D's fury for corrupting the earth).  The goat was the separation substitute for us.

Again there is no description of being burnt and offered inside the Temple like the sin sacrifices were.

This again satisfies the scape goat but offers no explanation for sin sacrifices in the Temple being fulfilled.

KFC, you are taking this scripture passage out of context.  Why did you cut off the first part of this passage?  This is the subject matter of this passage and you conveniently left it out?  BTW, I believe you were refering to 10:26 (not verse 28).

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," (Heb 10:26)

This verse has NO CONTEXT of doing away with sin sacrifice but rather that willful sinning after receiving the truth (ie entering into the covenant) there is no sacrifice for sins because there is no repentance from a willful sinner. 

This is similar to the purpose of the scape goat.

Again you are mistaken. See above reference.

The alter KFC was outside of the Holy place but INSIDE the walls of the Temple and Tabernacle (also known as the outer court yard).

LINK for image of Tabernacle.

Of course there is.  The evidence is in scripture.  God tells them exactly what to do with the scape goat.  You show me where it says to kill it.   Yes, later much later they killed this goat but that had nothing to do with how God ordained it.   God didn't mandate this.  He just said to lead it away from the camp.  It was probably easier to kill it then to take it far away. 

It's Very clear.  All of these sacrifices....all of them spoke of Christ.  It sounds like you're stumped just over the "burnt" part of the animal sacrifce?  So you don't accept it because Christ wasn't burnt?  Where does it say that this is a requirement for the Messiah?  Jesus wasn't an animal.  He was God in the flesh.   We see his flesh was torn.  We see the weight of sin was upon him.  We see he was sacrificed by death.  We also see by looking at various OT passages exactly how he would die.  Jesus knew all of this.  But do you know what grieved him the most?  Not the cruicifixion.  Not the scoffing.  Not the scorging.  But the fact that he was to be separated from his father when he died for the sins of the world.   

Just reading Hebrews should suffice for you.  The whole book practically is devoted to this subject.  You didn't address the other scriptures I gave you from this book.  What of them? 

We see Jesus in David who was King.  We see Jesus in Joseph who suffered.  We see Jesus in Isaac.  We see Jesus in Aaron as High Priest.  We see Jesus as Moses.....etc....etc.  He fulfilled it all.  Even the sin sacrifice. 

Only to be brief.  Let me see........yes, 10:26,,,typo...sorry about that.  In a hurry I think.  Not out of context at all.  In fact.....since you asked.....I'll give it to you in context.   The whole passage from 10:19 to 10:29 was a warning not to despise Christ's offering for sin.  You've got.....

1.  That Christ is the only way.  (v19)

2.  We have access to God now because of the torn veil (his flesh) which opened the Holy of Holies to us. (v20)

3.  Next is the profession of faith which comes after this acceptance.  (v23)

4.  Because of the above this should provoke or stir up for us love and good works.  (v24)

5.  We are not to forsake the gathering together for worship and edification as we wait for His coming. (v25)

6.  Any that sin willfully and deliberately after hearing from us  will find there is no other sin offering.  There is no more torn flesh to be had.  There is no other way.   You can't go get another sacrifice.  It's done.  (v26)

7.  The only thing left for those who reject this truth is fire (v27).

8.  If you thought Moses law was bad under two or three witnesses how much worse you're going to find what it's like to reject the offering for sin (blood of the covenant) that Christ offered in our stead?  (v29)

This is part of a severe warning (26-29) and is saying that if a person rejects the truth of Christ's death for sin there is no other sacrifice for sin available and no other way to come to God.  Only judgment remains (v27).  You have to read the whole thing in context. 

"knowledge of the truth" is the gospel but instead of accepting it you choose willfully to remain in sin.  He has seen and heard the truth, he knows it well but he willfully rejects it.   So not sure your point here AD.  Alot of people use this  verse as losing your salvation once you've "earned" it.  Has nothing to do with that. 

I've got pictures galore as well. 

But you gave me a pic of Moses Tabernacle which of course I have that as well.  I'm referring to the Temple built by Solomon and later Herod's Temple.  At Holy Land here in Florida (built by a Messianic Jew) there's a replica that I think is 2/3 the size of this temple. 

Remember the steps outside the temple that Simeon blessed the baby Jesus? Big steps that go up?   They were outside the Temple.  I think what you're talking about is the courtyard which is directly outside the Temple.

All I'm saying is that earlier in your discussions with Lula you both were talking about sacrifices done inside the building (that's how I took it)  and I'm asserting these sacrifices were done out in the open area outside the building.  I don't call the outside the Temple.  I call it the court or the courtyard. 

Yes, there's a wall or a gate that encompasses it all  but it's the outside courtyard.  Go to Exodus 27:9-19.  It talks about the court of the tabernacle and later court of the Temple.  It measured 150x75.  The Tabernacle itself took up only about 1/15th of this area. 

The sacrifices were done outside the Temple itself or in the Court of the Temple.  If you call it the same thing then it's just semantics.  I just distinguish between the two because it seems scripture does.  Some stuff was to be put inside the Temple and other stuff outside in the court of the Temple. 

oh one more thing AD....you didn't answer me on this:

and what about the passage from Christ himself I gave you a while back???

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."    Matthew 11:13

There are a couple of things that I would like to mention and clarify.

Let’s look at the messiah. Isaiah chapters 40-66 appear the great Servant Passages which reach the highest peaks of glory of the revelation contained in the Tanack.  Those 27 chapters can be divided in three sections.

The first section (Chapters 40-48) Israel is seen in Babylonian captivity and Cyrus, the king of Persia, appears upon the historical horizon as the one who will try to deliver the captives in exiles.

The second section (Chapters 48-57) appears the Servant of the L-RD as the principal actor upon the stage,  Here Israel in the white light of spiritual illumination which comes from the Spirit of the L-RD is seen to be in a captivity of far more serious nature than of being in exile in a foreign country ie. In the bondage and servitude to sin and unrighteousness.  Here also the Servant of the L-RD in the three central chapters of this middle division appears as the great deliverer of HIS people.

What did HE deliver HIS people from?  What was HIS purpose for this?

In the last section (Chapters 58-66) the glorious result of the work of the L-RD has appeared, Israel has not only been delivered from severe bondage to sin but delivered from all bondage in order that they may enjoy the restored covenant relationship with her G-D under the personal rule and power of the Servant of the L-RD. 

Rabbi Moses Alshech “I will do yet a third thing, and that is, that 'they shall look unto me,' for they shall lift up their eyes unto me in perfect repentance, when they see Him whom they pierced, that is Messiah, the Son of Joseph; for our Rabbis, of blessed memory, have said that He will take upon Himself all the guilt of Israel, and shall then be slain in the war to make an atonement in such manner that it shall be accounted as if Israel had pierced Him, for on account of their sin He has died; and, therefore, in order that it may be reckoned to them as a perfect atonement, they will repent and look to the blessed ONE, saying, that there is none beside HIM to forgive those that mourn on the account of HIM who died for their sin: this the meaning of, “They shall look upon me....” He saw that G-D revealed through the prophet Isaiah along with Zechariah that HE (G-D HIMSELF) would be the ONE who is pierced. 

The purpose of this is for as follows:“And now says the L-RD that formed me from the womb to be HIS servant, to bring Jacob again to HIM, and that Israel to be gathered unto HIM (for I am honorable in the eyes of the L-RD, and my G-D is become my strength.); yea, HE says, it is too light of a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to RESTORE AND PRESERVED of Israel:  I will also give you for a light to the gentiles, that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.  Says the L-RD, the Redeemer of Israel, and HIS Holy ONE, to HIM whom man despised, to HIM whom the nation hated, to a servant of rulers: Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall worship; because of the L-RD that is faithful, even the HOLY ONE of Israel, who has chosen you.” ~ Isaiah 49:5-7

This passage is one of the great Servant predictions of Isaiah.  One of the objects of Messiah’s coming is set forth in verse 6: to restore the preserved of Israel.   In Isaiah 61:1-9 the promise is made that he Messiah shall not only restore the nation to its own land, but that “they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.  Again, this can be seen in Jeremiah 23:5-8.

“Behold, the days come, says the L-RD, that I will make a new covenant WITH THE HOUSE of ISRAEL, and with the HOUSE OF JUDAH; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for as much as they broke my covenant, although I was a L-RD OVER THEM, says the L-RD.  But this is the covenant that I will make with the covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the L-RD, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their G-D, and they shall be MY people, and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying:  Know the L-RD; for they shall all know ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the L-RD; for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin will I remember no more.”

According to this promise, G-D, says Jeremiah, will make a new covenant with the entire house of Israel which will not be like the one HE made with Israel at Mt. Sinai, for this covenant promises to be one which goes deeper than the outward observance.  Jeremiah 31:33 says a new heart and a new spirit.

Isaiah 1:11 “What good to MR are your many sacrifices, says the L-RD? I am inundated with burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fattened cattle, and the blood of bulls; nor do I DELIGHT in the blood of lambs and he goats.” Psalms 40 “You gave me to understand that you do not desire sacrifice and meal offering; You do not ask for burnt offering and sin offering.” 

G-D always desired us to do HIS will (see Hebrews 10:5)

Romans 11: I say, then, Did not they stumble that they fall? Let it not be! By their false step/transgression came salvation to the nations (Gentiles), to provoke them to jealousy. If their false step/transgression is the riches of the world (Gentiles), and their default the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness?

My translation of the Greek here: “If an event so untoward as Israel’s fall was the occasion of such unspeakable good to the Gentile world, of how much greater good may we expect an event so blessed as their full recovery to be productive?”

Paul made sacrifices in Acts 18:18 (aph' heautōn here means voluntarily taken the vow) and Acts 21:23-26 (along with four others) in the Temple.  This sacrifice had nothing to do with sin offering because there were other types of offerings not just sin offering.  It was for the Nazarite vow. 

Also Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John, and all the original Apostles kept the feast per Lev 23.  Which G-D says they shall be kept forever and ever.  Polycarp, a disciple of John said that we should keep Passover because he witness John doing it as well as John saying that the others kept it.

If you look at Joseph and Joseph being a mirror example of the Servant Messiah you can see that Joseph saved both Jews and Gentiles from the perishing death.  Brought both in the fullness of G-D's blessing of abundances (symbolizing G-D's promises).

G-D wants to restore not only save us from our transgressions. The same goes for the Messiah the Messiah was/is to restore us back to our original positions.  Which according to Revelation is to be co-heirs with HIM and according to Corinthians is to be co-labors with HIM.

I am not down playing the importance of being delivered from the slavery of sins.  There are greater blessings out there that G-D has for us (I'm not talking about prosperity either).

AD POSTS #55

lula posts #70

THE PEOPLE'S PARTY POSTS # 72

No...what I said is the US bishops finally corrected this mistake that had been printed in the Catechism. 

 The CC officially holds to Replacement Theology and has rejected Dual Covenant theology. 

In 1998, Pope Benedict, then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote, "Thus the Sinai covenant is indeed superceded." And since the Sinai Covenant aka the Old Mosaic Covenant included the items in Romans 9:4-5, it is superceded, as a legal entity, has no legal standing today.

First..this concerns exclusively the Old Mosaic Covenant as written in the inspired words of God in the OT. The Torah means only the inspired words of God in the OT.

Second...."Superceded" in the dictionary means that the former is abrogated and replaced by another.

Third,,,the Old Mosaic Covenant is the only covenant that God made exclusively with the Jews.  

Now, some statements that teach the Mosaic Covenant has been legally abrogated; is not applicable to anyone today, including the Jews.  

Hebrews 7:18, "On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled becasue of its weakness and uselessness..."

10:9, "Then he says, 'Behold, I come to do your will.' He takes away the first (covenant) to establish the second (covenant)..."

Cor. 3:14, For to this day when they (the Jews) read the Old Covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, becasue only through Christ is it taken away" ;

Hebrews 8:7, "For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

Col. 2:14, "Having cancelled the written code, with its decrees, that was against us and stood opposed to us; He took it away nailing it to the Cross".

The Council of Florence: "that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law.......although they were suited to the divine worship at the time, after Our Lord's coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began".

Council of Trent: "but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom".

St.Augustine in his Letters, 74, 4. "Instead of the grace of the law which has passed away, we have received the grace of the gospel which is abiding; and instead of the shadows and types of the old dispensation, the truth has come by Jesus Christ. Jeremias also prophesied thus in God's name: 'Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...' Observe what the prophet says, not to Gentiles, who had not been partakers in any former covenant, but to the Jewish nation. He who has given them the law by Moses, promises in place of it the New Covenant of the Gospel, that they might no longer live in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the Spirit."

It's been argued that since St.Paul alludes to "law" in Romans 7:1-4 somehow the Mosaic Law is still legally in force. It isn't. and Scripture tells us it's been legally revoked...he's simply teaching that certain Mosaic spiritual and moral principles are utilized into the New Covenant and some are not e.g. Rom. 13:1-10; Acts. 15:28; Heb. 10:16-18; Gal. 5:14, 1Col. 9:9; Rom. 7:7-12. those not: Col. 2:16; Acts. 15:10-12.

It's becasue of these that I argue that the Ten Commandments are still in force..... not becasue the Mosaic Law still has legal force, rather that the Chruch adopted the principles of Mosaic Law into the New Covenant...and therefore, ethically speaking, they remain.

Double post deleted.

Yeah, Hoorah,

Many thanks to AD for helping me get back to the thread.

Switching over to FireFox did the trick.

KFC, it isn't clear in the scripture passage whether the goat was to live or not.  In the Hebrew it says the goat is to be sent to/for Azazel.  Azazel was a fallen angel that was punished by being swallowed up by the earth in the wildernes (Enoch and Jubilee).

If Azazel sentenced to death, so was the goat.  Else this would be a sacrifice to another god (which contradicts Torah).

I see nothing inconsistent with the scriptures and what is written during second Temple times.  Please show me where the goat was to remain alive once it was taken out to the wilderness?  How else could the man taking the goat out into the wilderness ensure that the goat (with the sins placed upon its head) did not return if it wasn't killed?

Great if it is so clear than you can show me how the sin sacrifice that was burnt and sacrificed INSIDE the temple was fulfilled?  And please do not think I'm saying this to discount his messiahship but rather to discount that he fulfilled all of Torah therefore making Torah obsolete. I'm looking for how he specifically met those requirements regarding the burnt sacrifice?

I thought I did by saying that they seemed to fit the goat to/for Azazel (scape goat) but do not see them meeting the requirements of the burnt offering.

Verse 26 clearly suggests a conditional if statement.  Let's look at this verse in order of conditions.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"(kjv)

The first condition is to have received the knowledge of the truth.

The second is after meeting the first condition 'we' continue to sin wilfully.

Then after these two conditions are met the following action is to ensue (ie conclusion)... There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

It seems you are trying to use the conclusion to prove the If requirements which is backwards to what is written.

Summed up as saying, is if the first two requirements are met then the conclusion that there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins means there is no point for a sin sacrifice because there is no remorse for what they are doing (wilful sinning). 

what is sin, KFC? 

"... for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4 [KJV]) The greek root word here is nomos which is cross referenced as Torah (ie Sin is the transgression of the Torah).

KFC, the point is still that the sacrifices took place inside the Court of the Temple (which is still surrounded by a wall or curtain).  The burnt sacrifices (other than the red hefer) were to be done INSIDE (not to be mistaken as inside a building) the outer walls of the Tabernacle or Temple.  I consider the whole complex to be the Temple the 'main temple' some people call the Holy Place.  Again instead of being caught up in naming conventions the point is this sacrifice was to be done inside the court yard which was inside the Temple gate.

Says who? Can I have a source?

"It can be understood that the purpose of a sovereign G-D may be temporarily stayed, but can never be frustrated.  HE created all things by HIS will (Genesis 1 and Revelation 4:11) and purposed to receive glory through people called by HIS name and created to that end (Isaiah 43:7).  Isaiah 40:5 "and the glory of the L-RD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the L-RD has spoken it!"

In HIS ominscience and by the rightful exercise of HIS sovereign will, G-D selected a people as a channel through which to manifest HIS will and HIS word.  This began with the unconditional election of Abrahm and HIS seed (Genesis 12:1-2).  It was followed immediately by an unconditional promise (Genesis 12:3) and an unconditional grant of land (Genesis 12:7).  The covenant with Abraham was REAFFIRMED with Jacob (Genesis 28:13-14).  Jacob's name was changed to Israel and his sons and their descendants became the Israelites.  In Exodus 6 we find them in Egypt and we read 'moreover I have heard the groaning of the children of Israel...... and I have REMEMBERED MY COVENANT.  Where fore say unto the children of Israel, I am the L-RD....... I will take y ou to me for a people, and I will be to you a G-D...... and I will bring you into the land which I SWORE TO GIVE to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob."

By futher revelation G-D guaranteede to this people a perpetual and separate identity from the nations of the world (Leviticus 20:26; Numbers 23:9; Deuternomy 14:2).  The selection by G-D of this people was to remain forever, for we read "And YOU did establish to YOURSELF your people ISrael to be a people to you FOREVER." (2 Samuel 7:24_

The covenant with Abraham has now become an uncondition national covenant and never has been and never can be, abolished.  The gifts and the calling of G-D are not repented of (Romans 11:29), and therefore the sons of Jacob are not consumed (Malachi 3:6).  HOw incontestable and irrefutable are such passages as Jeremaih 31:35-37 and 33:20,25-26.

The contention that all covenant relations between the L-RD and HIS people Israel has been abolished with the crucifixion of the Messiah and the esatblishment of the Church is altogether contrary to the explicit teaching of Scripture.

G-D's purpose toward HIS people Israel has not changed, the middle wall of partition has not been broken down OUTSIDE OF Messiah Jesus (Yeshua)."

"It is only IN JESUS (Yeshua) that there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male and female.  These relations still all exist in their natural and proper realm.  If, then, it is G-D's purpose and program in this realm outside of Messiah, where the Jews are to this day, to bring the Gospel first to them there is still no contradiction of Romans 10:12-13 where we are told that the L-RD is rich to all that call upon HIM, for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.  This Scripture plainly teaches that G_D recognizes no distinction in responding to those who call upon HIM.  To say that there fore no distintions of any kind exist between Jew and Gentile is to be guilty of the fallacy of composition- affirming something to be true of the whole which is true only of one or more of its parts, when taken separately.  There is most certainly a distinction of order made in Romans 2:9-10 while at the same time G-D is no respector of persons (Romans 2:11) in the meting out of punishment or blessing.  There is absolutely no distinction in that all have sinned and are therefore lost apart from Jesus (Yeshua) (Romans 5:12-18) and in that G-D will be merciful to all that call upon HIM."

"Third,,,the Old Mosaic Covenant is the only covenant that God made exclusively with the Jews."

They were to be a light to all nations.  Also some nations accepted G-D because of the Israelites.

"It is claimed by some that Hebrews 8:6-8 and 13 teaches that the new covenant invalidated the covenant with Abraham and that G-D has cast off HIS people.  And this in spite of the plain statement of Romans 11:1-2 'I ask, then, has G-D rejected HIS people (Israel)? BY NO MEANS! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.  G-D has not rejected HIS people whom HE foreknew....'!  Even a cursory study of Hebrews 8 will reveal that the covenantwhich has become old and 'not unto vanishing away' is the Mosaic covenant and not the Abrahamic!  THe Mosaic covenant was neither unconditional nor eternal (Deuternomy 28:1,15; Galatians 3:19).  We are specifically told that the law did not disannul the covenant made with Abraham (Galatians 3:17) and that the very purpose of the death of the Messiah was to bring upon the Gentiles the blessing of Abraham so that they might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:13-14).  YES, truly, the death of the Messiah much less than abolishing the Abrahamic covenant was the keeping of it.  Witness the prophecy of Zacharias in Luke 1:72-73 "And to REMEMBER HIS HOLY COVENANT; the vow which HE SWORE TO ABRAHAM OUR FATHER."

What has actually taken place in the program of G-D is not rescinding of the Abrahamic covenant but revealing of an enlarging of it to take in the Gentiles by faith, that is, to take out of the Gentiles a people for HIS NAME (Acts 15:14)  This is the mystery which in other generations was not made known (Ephesians 3:3-6).  While this going on, Israel is in national rejection.  It is this sense she is temporarily cast away (Romans 11:15).  It is written 'After these things (the taking out of the Gentiles a people for HIS NAME) I will reture, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen' (Acts 15:16).  We see then that in G-D's program, there is to be a limitation to the time of Israel's national rejection.  This is verified by Luke 21:24, 'and Jerusalem shall be trampled down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.' and Romans 11:25 " a hardening in part has fallen on Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles will come!'"

Careful now, in Lula's world the tribes don't exist any more.

(Andrew, tribe of Judah)

Says the US Bishops, that's who. And it took them long enough to make the correction, but everything moves at a snail's pace in the Church. Anyway, they officially voted to have the sentence removed and that has gone forward to the Holy See for approval..which I think has already been done, not sure. Anyhow, after that, the plan is to produce a 2nd edition of the Catechism.

What's frustrating is there are x number of first editions out there....but what can one do...and there isn't such a thing as a recall in the CC. 

General motors maybe, but not the Church.

THE PEOPLES PARTY,

Your style of writing makes for an enjoyable read.

Truth is all of the OT prophets that you cited,  Isaias, Jeremias, Ezekiel, etc. presented the Jewish people with a "doctrine of the Messias" if you will. They foretold there would be an Ideal new King, a descendant of David. And then just before Moses died, he promised, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a PROPHET like me from among you, ..him you shall hear." Deut. 18:15. The PROPHET for one was greater because He would universalize the salvation promised to Abraham and his descendents. Some received their message while others rejected it.

THEPEOPLESPARTY #109

Good questions and given the answers lie in the fact that Almighty God's salvation plan includes 2 parts: the Old Abrahamic Covenant (Old Israel) and the New Covenant (New-Eternal Israel); in return, I would answer those by asking 2 as well.

What does Almighty God want of us and how do we know it?

The answers: Almighty God wants us to believe in His only begotten Son, Jesus the Christ, and become members of His Body.

thepeoplesparty posts: 115

Yes, for sure the LORD GOD made another covenant for Abraham's physical descendants, the Jews, so that they could inherit the land of Canaan and receive circumscion as their identity marker. Gen. 15:18-21; 17:1.

Leauki posts

KFC,

There is no future promise of land to be fulfilled.

Almighty God has already kept His promises to the letter! Scripture is clear the promises of Genesis 15:18-20 regarding those particular covenants concerning the aquisition of the promised land were completely fulfilled. The Lord God Himself said He fulfilled them....read Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56; and Nehemias 9:7-8. It's right there....they all say the Lord God fulfilled those promises by an oath He swore to Abraham. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years. 

From the Douay Rheims, Joshua 21: 41-43 ; the KJV 21:43-45, "And the LORD GOD gave to Isreal all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt in it. And He gave them peace from all nations round about; and none of their enemies durst stand against them, but were brought under their dominion. 43 Not so much as one word, which He had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass."

3Kings 8:56, "Blessed by the LORD , who hath given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He had promised: there hath not failed so much as one word of all the good things that He promised through His servant Moses."

2Esdras, alias Nehemias 9:7-8, "Thou, O LORD GOD, art He who choseth Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. 8 And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jesubite, and of the Gerzetite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words because thou art just."

These passages totally negate the proposition that Genesis 15:18-21 still remains to be fulfilled.

Deut. 9:5-6 also reveals that it was fulfilled becasue of the oath God made to Abraham, despite the wickedness of the Jews.

"For it is not for thy justices, and the uprightness of thy heart that thou shalt go in ot opossess their lands: but becasue they have done wickedly, they are destroyed at thy coming in: and that the LORD might accomplish his word, which he promised by oath to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Know therefore that the LORD thy GOd giveth thee not this excellent land in possession for thy justices, for thou art a very stiff necked people."

And we know the rest of the story....becasue of their continued disobedience, little by little God took the land away until it was completely decimated by the Romans soon after the New and Everlasting Covenant was inaugurated at Christ's death on the Cross.

We know too that at the same time their covenant of circumcision was also terminated.

The late Great Pope John Paul II said in 1986, "It will continue to be an explicit and very important part of my mission to repeat and emphasize that our attitude to the Jewish religion should be one of greatest respect, since the Catholic faith is rooted in the eternal truths contained in the Hebrew Scriptures, and in the irrevokable covenant made with Abraham....for it is the teaching of both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures that the Jews are beloved of God, who has called them with an irrevocable calling."

And here, of course, the Pope is correct as the Abrahamic covenant at least in its salvific dimensions, has never been revoked.

St.Paul confirms this in Hebrews 6:13-18, which explains that the LORD GOD sealed the Abrahamic covenant with an oath, which makes it irrevocable.  And then further in Heb. 6:19-13:14, St.Paul explains that Jesus Christ and His New Covenant of Grace is the program and centerpiece of Abraham's irrevocable covenant, not the Old Mosaic Covenant. 

KFC,

Your must be taking these passages and thinking in the physical when it's clear the physical has already been fulfilled. So what's left? What remains unfilfulled is the spritual or heavenly dimension of Abraham's covenant that are described in StMatt. 8:11-12; 23:37-38; St.Luke 21:24; Heb. 4:6-8; 10:16-18; Eph. 2:11-16; and Col. 2:11-17.

This is where it comes together.

Again, Pope John Paul II taught  "In the Old Covenant the object of the promise is the 'Kingdom of Heaven'....This same reality of the Kingdom is referred to in the expression 'eternal life'. ....It is attained in its perfection only after death, but in faith it si even now a light of truth...".

This is the reason why St.Paul writes that Abraham and Sarah "died in faith, without receiving the promise" Heb. 11:13, 39.  Later he explains that they were "looking for the city which has foundations whose architect and builder is God"..11:10, and a better land, that is, a heavenly one." 11:16.

Some people might think "Heaven" refers to a piece of land on earth, but it doesn't here...it refers to the next life when Abraham and Sarah are raised from the dead to dwell with God in eternity. If the LORD GOD had revoked taht particular covenant with Abraham, both he and Sarah would never receive what was promised to them, so that's why God made it irrevocable.