lula posts:

leauki posts:

Lula, you quoted incorrectly, although I know JU tends to make that difficult.

Anyway, when did G-d say that the "Mosaic Covenant" was finite?

And what do you have to do with the Abrahamic covenant? You are not a descendant of Abraham or his people. The Abrahamic covenant is with Israelites and Ismaelis. Islam's prophet Muhammed falls under it. But the Catholic Church does not. (The Edomites also fall under it but they merged with the Israelites. The Ismaelis later merged with the Arabs.)

You are interpreting into the text again despite (or probably because of) the fact that the text doesn't say literally what you want it to say.

Where do you get the Edomites fall under God's covenant?  Have you ever read the OT prophet Obadiah?  You might want to read that.  The shortest book in the OT.  But it's not a good thing about the Edomites. 

Re: #91, all but the last two comments are direct quotes...the last two are my remarks to those  and I don't know why they came up as quotes.

The duration of the Old Mosaic is limited by God's own words...and judgment.

By His words, in Lev 6:18- "All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations concerning the offerings of the LORD made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy."

As far as the Old Mosaic Covenant being finite read Jeremias 31:33-35. The idolatrous and unfaithful Isrealites didn't keep their end of the Sinai agreement and thus voided it themselves. In v. 33, Jeremias prophecies the New Israel. It was fulfilled when Christ established His Church.  

Jer. 31:31-35  "31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord. 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith the Lord, who giveth the sun for the light of the day, the order of the moon and of the stars, for the light of the night: who stirreth up the sea, and the waves thereof roar, the Lord of hosts is his name.

Then when Pilate asked the Chief Priests, "Shall I crucify your King?", they unanimously declared, "We (the Jewish people) have no king but Caesar!" By this public proclamation, the heads of the Jewish nation and the official guardians and exponents of the Old Jewish religion officially merge and incorporate their nation into the pagan empire of Rome.  They renounce the honor of being the chosen people of God and become vassals of the Roman Empire. It is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jacob, the complete departure of the sceptre from Judah Gen. 49:10.

To have Jesus done to death, they give themselves to Ceaesar. Jesus would have saved them, while Caesar before long (in their (Sanhedrin's) generation) will beseige Jerusalem and destroy the Temple and massacre them, on an anniversary of this paschal festival.    

Almighty God acknowledged that the Mosaic Covenant was broken when, at the moment of Christ's crucifixion, the Temple Veil was rent from top to bottom. God was making it known that the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law were to be abolished....this was 33AD.

Granted, the Temple itself was still there..and would be until 70 AD when Christ judged the told the Sanhedrin at His trial that they would see the day when He comes to judge them. That day would be in their generation.

By His Judgment.....in their generation....70AD

To understand we must first go back to what Christ said to the Sanhedrin at His trial right after the two false witnesses testified against Him....as found in St.Matt. 26:60-64,

60 And they found not, whereas many false witnesses had come in. And last of all there came two false witnesses:

61 And they said: This man said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and after three days to rebuild it. 62 And the high priest rising up, said to him: Answerest thou nothing to the things which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 Here, Jesus told the men judging Him that they would see (v. 64 it would happen in their generation) the coming foretold by Daniel 7:13. So this means the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem would witness the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power of God.

Now following the events....At His trial, Christ quoted Daniel in effect telling the Sanhedrin that within their generation, they would witness Him as the spiritual Victor and see the day when He comes to judge them. Then Christ died, was Resurrected (was victorious over death), and 40 days later, ascended into Heaven where He reigns at the right hand of God.

There was only one public event that occurred during the generation of the Sanhedrin that would show them Christ was their Judge.  Christ's prophecy in St.Matthew and of Daniel that evidenced the coming of Christ "with the clouds of Heaven" was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD. This event showed the Sanhedrin that Christ was the Victor seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. Just as God judged Egypt with the Assyrian army, Christ judged Jerusalem with the Roman Army. And He predicted it in St.Luke 19:42-44.

Jesus fulfilled Daniel's "Son of Man" prophecy from Heaven.

The destruction of the Temple and its Altar followed by the ending of the priestly tribe of Levi with its family of Aaron, and the ending of the existence of the tribe of Judah with its family of David, in which the Messias was foretold to be born, evidences the indisputable historical fact that the Judaism of the OLd Testament ceased to exist.

Through Christ, I am a spiritual descendant of Abraham.

Through the seed of Abraham "all the kindred of the earth" were to be "blessed" especially from it the Messias was to come Gen. 12. Catholics believe in the one true God came to the world through Abraham. The blessing of the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" comes to all of the children of God who believe in Christ. Christ didn't preach faith in a new God nor did He or His disciples invent a new name. Christ came not to destroy but to fulfill, and the God whom He preached was the God of Abraham.

So, the faith in the One Living God, and the Jewish veneration of Abraham as "the father of all believers" has been commorated in the Chruch throughout the Christian ages.

Furthermore, in Rom. 4 and Galatians 3:6-14, St.Paul claims Abraham as the spiritual ancestor of all, whether Jews, Gentiles, whose faith ensures them a share in the fruition of the Messianic promise." Pope Pius XI said that Abraham is our patriarch, our ancestor and that we are all Semites spiritually.

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How is Abraham's Covenant with the Ismaelis?

And with the same logic the Mormons can be called Israelites.

Did some obscure church official decide that Ismael was no longer Abraham's son?

No, but God made it very clear to Abraham that the covenant was not with Ishamel but with Isaac. 

"And God said, Sarah your wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him.  And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; Behold I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation.  But my covenant will I establish with Isaac which Sarah shall bear unto you at this set time in the next year."  Gen 17

Later God even went so far as to call Isaac Abraham's "only" son.  Gen 22.  He said this more than once. 

This is true.  We are the adopted children of Abraham as the the promise to Abraham indicated that all nations would be blessed as a result of Abraham and his covenant with God. 

We are the grafted in branches of the Abrahamic tree that Jesus and Paul spoke of.  But it came with a warning not to be prideful...... that if the natural branches (Jews) were cut off so much more can the grafted brances be cut off as well. 

That's a different covenant.

There is a covenant with Abraham and one with Isaac himself.

Both are everlasting, obviously.

You can see the covenant on Ismael's side when you remember what was promised to the nation Abraham would spawn. They would rule the land between the Nile and the Euphrates. And the Ismaelis and Israelites do, together. Arabs led by Ismalis have indeed invaded and annexed the land as predicted.

Also remember that the sign of the covenant exists in both Israelite and Ismaeli traditions. Ismael was 13 when the covenant was made. Isaac was yet to be born. Since then the traditional age for circumcising boys in Israelite tradition is just after birth and in Ismaeli tradition it's at the age of 13.

If you see a distinct difference between the or "spiritual" branches and the natural branches AND that the natural branches deserve protection I don't have a problem with your claim to be one of Abraham's "descendants".

However, the Ismaelis are his descendants too and the Muslims are also spiritual descendants.

- Abraham

-- Ismael (natural)

--- Ismaeli Bedouins (natural)

---- Muslims (spiritual)

-- Isaac -> Jacob (natural)

--- Israelites (natural)

---- Jews (natural)

---- Christians (spiritual)

- Zoroastrians (spiritual brothers to Abraham)

Yes I believe that was pretty good timing on God's part.  At the same time this first circumcision was to be done, the promise of the covenant with Abraham concerning Isaac was made.  Both Abraham and Ishmael were circumcized at the same time. Isaac was the first child at 8 days old to be circumcized. 

All the promises concerning the land were made to only the Jews.  And it's a vast amount, not what they have today. 

God said that Ishmael would be blessed into a great nation but that was fulfilled in Gen 25.  That's not the same as a covenant.  Nowhere in Moses writings was there a covenant with the line of Ishmael and God.  I think that's very clear from the scripture I gave above besides others I can furnish. 

"But my covenant will I estableish with Isaac"

Legally the natural son became the heir even tho born after the son of a slave wife.  It's very clear in the reading of Gen 17 that God's covenant was NOT with Ishmael but only with Isaac and the blessing of a great nation coming from Ishmael was because he was the son of Abraham.  But it was Isaac who was the son of promise.  Not Ishmael. 

Don't feel bad for Ishamel because this is not the only time God favored the younger over the elder.  Esau was the eldest and it was Jacob who was chosen right from the womb.  Joseph was the near youngest of 12 brothers and yet he was the one that got most of God's attention.  David was the youngest  of seven sons of Jesse and you know the story. 

If you look at Chap 17 of Geneis you'll see that this was an uncondional covenant he made with Abraham so Abraham really had only to follow God since there were no conditions put on him to keep this covenant.  God says "I will" twelve times and "my covenant" nine times.  It was God's covenant with Abraham thru Isaac and the seed that would follow that would culminate with the birth of Jesus thru the line of Judah. 

KFC, you are confusing the Temple and the Holy of Holies.

KFC, if anything this would meet the requirements for Jesus being the "scape goat" (the goat for Azazel) of Yom Kippur (day of atonement) but not for the sin sacrifices that were done inside the Temple (which was the OTHER goat). 

KFC, you are right I want to be in the covenant of Torah and all its blessings.  What you fail to see is that you want all those blessings mentioned in the Torah without the bilateral contract of Torah observance.  Jesus didn't do away with sin but rather the punishment of it (ie death Rom 6:23). Sin is defined in 1 John as the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4). 

The animal didn't suffer outside the gate.  It was already dead before its, dung, fat, intestines, hide etc were taken outside the Temple and outside the camp. 

There is quite the arguable case that Jesus met the requirements for the "scape goat" but none for the requirements of the sin sacrifice inside the Temple/Tabernacle.

Jews have never claimed more than what was located in the British Mandate. The interpretation that G-d gave more land than that to the people of Israel has never been Jewish belief.

(In fact it was made up by Arab nationalists to "prove" that Israel and the Jews are trying to take over all of the "Arab world"; and by "Arab world" they mean the land of dozens of non-Arab peoples.)

There is no specific covenent with Ismael's line, but the covenant with Abraham clearly covers Ismael as well, hence the circumcision ritual. Abraham circumcised Ismael because Ismael was party to the covenant.

That I believe. However none of that invalidates the Abrahamic covenant which covered all of Abraham's descendants.

The Edomites eventually merged with the Israelites, hence no line was lost here.

I don't know about that, but the prophecy about the land clearly shows that Ismael got his share. (And maybe it is about time that he give back what lies outside the region described by those two rivers.)

That's NOT what the scriptures say and there's lots of them that refute what I underlined you saying here. 

You're forgetting the scape goat was not to be killed. 

Then what did John mean when he said "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?" 

How about Isaiah who looked ahead and said this:

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put him to grief when You shall make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.  He shall see the travail of his soul and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities."  53:10-11

God was satisfied with the sin sacrifice of the unblemished one that took away the sin of the world.  His whole being including his soul was involved in the offering (v10) and is the word used in Lev 6-7 of the trepass offering.

Remember Jesus was beaten to within inches of his life before he was sent outside that gate to die on a cross. 

I don't know where you're getting this teaching AD but it's not biblical.  I'll give you a bunch of scripture to mull over. 

".....when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.  Heb 1:3b 

"to make reconciliation for the sins of the people"  Heb 2:17b   (literally to propitiate or expiate.  This refers to God's wrath being satisfied by the death of Christ.  Expiation emphasizes the removal of sin by the sacrifice that satisfied God.  Sin interrupts normal relations with God and expiation removes sin and restores our relationship with him)

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."  Heb 9:28  (quoted from Isaiah 53). 

In His first coming he dealt with sin once and for all; in His second coming He will take redeemed sinners to Himself.  To be offered as a sin sacrifice is what was required by the OT law for our sins.  Jesus did this and according to Hebrews there is nothing more to be done. 

"Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."  10:28

It's been done.  You either have to accept this or not but if not, I'd be examining these scriptures very earnestly if I were you AD.  This is the crux of the whole OT and NT scriptures.  The Good News is the Gospel which is that Christ came and dealt with our sin by dying in our place.  That's what the animals did for us, but they could only cover our sins.  Christ literally took them away from us cleansing us completely instead of just covering us up.  Remember Adam and Eve were "covered" by God with animal skins?  That's a symbol of what the animals did for us.  Christ did better than that. 

Paul also said:

"who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world"......Gal 1:4a

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."  1 Cor 15:3......  He's talking OT scriptures here. 

The scape goat was not killed.  The scape goat was to be led far outside the camp with the sin weight of the people.  Only the goat that was left behind in the Temple area was to be killed.  

Jesus met ALL the requirements for the OT law doing with the sacrificial system.  He was the scape goat that you mentioned as well as the Passover Lamb as well as the sin offering made at the Temple. 

BTW The altar was outside the temple door.  I know the diff between the holy of holies and the Temple. 

The laver, the court of the Priests, the ramp, the altar, the tethering place and the slaughtering place were all outside the door that led INTO the Temple.  You went up into the portch into the Holy place and then into the inner sanctum which only the High Priest was able to go to called the Holy of Holies. 

I don't know about that but over the years I've heard that it's well accepted that the land, outlined in Genesis and other parts of the Torah, have never been fully occupied by the Jews.   That only during Solomon's reign did it even come close to reality.  This is still a future promise that the seed of Abraham will enjoy the full extension of land promised to them as outlined by God.  The land promised them is first mentioned in Gen 15:18-20.  The boundaries are mentioned.  That's quite a hunk of land. 

It's clear that the Covenant covered all the seed of Isaac and we can see this quite clearly as the lineage is protected all the way to Joseph and Mary and then lost after the death of Christ.  It's not for his other descendants.  So Ishmael and Abraham's other sons from the wife after Sarah died were excluded. 

Actually the Edomites are gone.  There are no survivors today of the once mighty Edomites.  See Isa 34:5-17.  Did you know that Herod came from the line of Edom?  He was an Edomite.  So Jacob's famous son (Jesus)  stood bfore Esau's famous son (Herod).  What we saw was spiritual warfare in the physical realm.  This was a fulfillment of Gen 3:15 when the seed of woman would crush the head of the seed of the serpent at the cross. 

He did.  And he prospered as God said would happen.  In fact, it looks like they did pretty well if you asked me. 

to say that means all Abraham's slaves and bondmen were part of this covenant as well. 

According to Jewish belief one's property (i.e. wives and slaves) were always part of such compacts.