Good point and question.

The UN was intent upon creating an Israeli state, but also an Arab state. The Arabs disagreed with this, and I do see their rationale for it. I also don't agree with the UN thinking they have the right to do what they did.

That being said, I think a lot of the blame for the beginning of this lies - in a way - with the colonialism of the time. Palestine was a British Mandate. Now, if the British had just left the people there alone (allowing them to form their own gov't, etc.), and/or if the UN had just left it's hands out of what wasn't theirs - things might've been better.

That being said, I don't see how Israel had any *right* to an Israeli state when clearly they were not the only ones there; I would have felt they could have made a state of Israel and Palestine, combined. (If it was workable, which im sketpical) 

Bottom line, special interests and big power bs was at play. Brtain didn't leave things alone, the zionist movement really irks me the more i read it (seems like they feel things are entitled to it/israel/them).

Yeah, probably going to get a lot of flak, but whatever.

You miss one important point, you displaced these people with the creation of the state of Israel, no matter what your background, Israel did not exist before 1949 (in the modern world), you displaced the people living there and still do, so as far as I'm concerned you people are treating the Palestinens just as badly as you yourself were treated, you have displaced these people just as once you were displaced, and show no compassion for their plight. So why should the world treat you any better. They kill 13 people, you kill 1600., seems fair (NOT). You build a wall just like east germany, you say you didn't start the fight, it's a good thing there is so much sand over there so you people have somewhere to bury your heads. As for you saying all people in Israel are Mizrachim and Sephardim predomintely, is interesting when you look at the many people who imigrated to Israel, from all over Europe, you included, not forgetting the US.

Remember one thing sunshine, even if some of my facts were wrong, and I acknoledge that, you people have displaced many people all because of a need to "Come Home", and given that you did this you would at least expect a little compassion towards those you displaced, as should be expected in any country where the origional people have been displaced.

One last thing, the world in general is not supporting your country as much as once happened, and it's because of your treatment of "Arabs". To continue down this path will only incure the condemnation you have recieved. I am also more than aware that there were many Jewish people in northern africa, who migrated to Israel. 

I don't have an issue with the existence of your country, I do however think you people need to change the way you treat your neighbours, not to mention the fact that you flout international conventions and laws, and yet put your hand up to say you are a good citizen, sorry it dosen't work that way.

Just for the record, my grandmother was Jewish, she converted to Christianity when she married my Grandfather (Lilly), her family came from Lithuania, and she has always filled me in on the history of her forfathers, she also was a strong supporter of Israel, but like me, was offended by the treatment of non Jews. Many of my family on my Mothers side are still Practising Jews, which makes for some interesting family parties, mostly the stories they tell about their Journey to Australia, from Lithuania via England, all during the 2nd world war, and the ensuing Russian anexation. My Grandmother's parents came out here much earlier, and my GM was born here unlike many of her brothers, who decided to stay untill things got too much. Of course there were things we never discussed, eg: the Camps, where many of her family died, Ironically those that were living here already fought in the WW2, a horrible time for all.

Just so you understand, I do not condem the existence of Israel.

Leauki, I by no means expect our little chat will solve the problems of the world, far from it, I just wonder how long the people on both sides will take to come to the realisation that they will not solve their differences with the spilling of blood.

You must get sick of the fighting, and the rockets and suicide bombs. The current path you are taking is just breeding hatred between the two nations and extremism, and the harder each side pushes the worse the backlash gets.

As for the Arab thing will check, and will certainly acknoledge any error, so watch this space my friend, don't like getting facts wrong, makes one look a fool.

 

I guess entitlement is only right when it's your entitlement, right?

Why not give the whole thing back to the Ottoman Turks? Seems there was no Palestine then either and nobody whined about it. Having been to Israel and many other Middle Eastern countries, I'd have to say I saw more Arabs in Israel than I saw Jews in the Arab world (none in fact). I believe the Palestinians took their ball and left, now they want to come back but not unless the Israelis leave. They blew it. Nobody chased them out, they left on their own when they thought the neighboring Arabs were going to burn the place to the ground. Well that didn't happen, they put their money on the loser, now their crying foul.

Imagine if someone forecloses on a home. You buy it, fix it up, improve it. Now the previous owner comes back and wants you out. You let them put up a tent in your back yard. They and your neighbors throw rocks at your wife and kids, smash your windows. Then when you pull a stake out of their tent...your the bad guy. To top it off knuckleheads world wide think your wrong and support the former owners.

When you give your home back to the Native Americans (or to the Aborigines for our Australian friends) then you can be self-righteous all you want, until then you are a hypocrite, the pot calling the kettle black. High ideals for everyone else, self excluded.

 

Actually there were still many palestinians there when the area was formed into the state of israel.The palestinians/Arabs in the area rejected it - i believe - because they felt it wasn't right that the Jews were getting a leg up politicall, as well as some other reasons (division of districts, lack of an arab state, etc.) It really ended up being a mess.(btw, don't quote me on this, im recalling it from distant memory)

 

~AJ

 

 

 

Seems like it, unfortunately. *le sigh* C'est la vie, malheursment...

 

~AJ

zergimmi posts:

leauki posts: [quote]The simple truth is that you write complete nonsense.

There is no "Palestinian race". There are simply Arabs, Jews and other peoples who live in "Palestine", with "Palestine" being the Roman name for a region in the Middle-East. ....quote]

While Leauki says what you write is complete nonsense....I think it's very insightful and right on the mark as is post 48.

It's just that in relation to things Jewish, we find most terms to be terminologically confused and confounded That's becasue in modern Judaism (all those Judaisms that sprung up after 70AD), there is no agreement whatsoever among persons calling themselves "Jews" as to the distinction between terms and so they are used interchangeably.  

leauki posts 43

Leauki,

Even though Zergimmi called them the "Palestinian people", you reminded him there is no "Palestinian race" and yet, it is the same of Jews. Jews are not a race in the ethnological sense of the term. Jews do not have any physical distinctiveness to warrant their being classified as other than a disticnctive cultural group of the white division of the human species.

In origin, Jews are an Eastern Mediterranean people, and so are many other groups not called "Jews".   

Zergimmi posts 42

Yes, this is true for the terms "Hebrews", "Isrealites" and "Jews" cannot rightly be used interchangeably.

Most people do call a Hebrew a Jew, and also an Isrealite a Jew. But calling them such does not give him a distinctive character and neither does it inform us whether he is a believer in Mosaic principles and practices as the term Hebrew did four plus centuries before Christ and the Christian era.

leauki posts:

First came the Hebrews....meant originally a stranger, a foreigner. According to Genesis 14:13, the first person designated as a Hebrew was Abraham (forefather of the Isrealites, and Abraham was not a Jew) becasue he was a foreigner in Canaan, who had come from the other side of the Euphrates River. Isaias 19:18 tells us the name "Hebrew" was later given to the "language of Canaan" and was applied to the "Jews" who spoke the holy language in contrast to the Hellenic "Jews" who spoke the Greek language only.

So, Abraham was the first Hebrew recorded in the OT, and he was not a Jew.

From Exodus 3:15, we learn the term "Isrealites" stems from Jacob, the son of Isaac, whose name God changed to Isreal. The name Isreal was later given at a later date to the 10 northern tribes that have disappeared. 1Kings 2:28-30.

From 4Kings 25:25, comes the first record of the term Jews. There it's applied to the people of Judah, It is related to a worshipper of the one God in the Book of Esther 2:5. That was about 1,000 years after Moses became the father of Old Testament Judaism about 250 years after Jacob's name was changed to Isreal.  

Historically, until 70AD, the advent of all the modern Judaisms, the term "Jews" was universally applied to believers and worshippers of the one God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob according to the Mosaic Law. The term Isrealites applied to the descendants of Jacob and to their nationality. The term Hebrew was applied to the language of the Jews.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to mention that "race" is a sociological construct; it was brough about as to stratify societies based on differences. An example that comes to mind is early america with: Whites/Caucasions, Blacks/Negroes, Indians/Savages, etc. There was a desire to be...in a sense...superior over another. Why? I don't know...just is what it is.

 

 

alecjourdain posts:

Leauki,

"Right"?

No such a "right" exists.....the Jewish oppression of others called "Palestinians" to the point of ethnic cleansing is not a "right".

 

 

I wrtie complete nonsense says you, I do not for one minute expect the dismantling of Israel, and I do not call all Jews European, only the ones from Europe. Just as the ones from Australia are Australian. Your problem mate is you quote everything above in response to what I said, while very little relates to the fact that you guys took land from other people (lets forget what we call them), and now you think we should support how you treat them, sorry you can blab all day but it's still bullshit, and if you think what I say is garbage then ignor me. By the way I only came on today to say I was soryy for some of my original comments yesterday, however even though I was wrong on many points, you can stick the apology up you tight little arse.

Out of interest are you Haredi, or your more run of the mill Jew, I can see you are not secular.

I suppose me being RC would make me secular, being that I have Jewish Blood, but am not Jewish (by religion).

I always remember those words that Jesus spoke when he was carrying his cross to his death at the hands of his own people, it go something like this, weap not for me woman, but for your sons and their sons, as there will not be a stone left upon a stone (in the nation of Israel). You people seem very good at making this a reality.

So go on and rant, I really don't care, at the end of the day it makes no difference, what you or I say, it changes nothing.

I was wrong on the Arab thing though I will admit that.

It seems to me Leauki, that most of what I wrote was closer to the truth, or facts, whatever , than you would have me believe, including the origins of your people, including my Granny (Lithuainan) and even Abraham.

It is you my friend who talks nonsense, I would imagin tinged with a bit to much emotion, it seems my dear old Granny may know a bit more than you my friend, however I was advised I was wrong to call Abraham an Arab, sorry he was Hebrew.

You referred to Israelis as "Europeans", despite the fact that the majority are from middle-eastern families.




Fair enough.




I was "closer to the truth". You really don't know much about Semitic peoples. I don't care whether your granny is Lithuanian. You very clearly don't know much about the origin of the Israelites.

That is OK.

But what isn't OK is to start ranting on a subject you know almost nothing about.

The Arabs from "Palestine" were NOT expelled by the Jews. The Jews didn't even have the manpower to do that, as any anti-Israel activist can tell you if you listen carefully. (They will tell you how few Jews they believe lived in the region in 1947 and how many "Palestinian" refugees there allegedly were. If you add up the numbers you will find that a very small Jewish minority somehow managed to make millions of Arabs leave while fighting the other Arabs. It's mathematically impossible and it didn't happen.)

The land was also not "stolen", but very simply bought.

Baron Rothschield and others started buying land in Israel in the late 19th century and that is the land the Jewish state was founded on. It wasn't "Arab land", it was Turkish land (by sovereignty). Individual parts of the land were owned by Turks, Jews, Arabs etc. And the Zionists started buying the land. It was cheap because nobody wanted to live there. Plus it was almost empty. (There lived fewer than 50,000 people, Jew and Arab, in Jerusalem in 1900. The newly-founded Tel Aviv would have more inhabitants 30 years later.)

If the Turkish authorities had not expelled local Jews every few years, the Arab majority would probably have been in danger a long time ago. But to claim that it is Arab land because the Turkish authorities kept expelling Jewish inhabitants borders on sarcasm.




Now, why would I bee Haredi? Whatever made you think that?

I am perhaps not secular, but "Haredi" goes a bit far. I don't even keep kosher. (But I do have the dark bearded looks, if it interests, and some of my friends indeed wear hats.)

I am masorti, traditional.

Middle-eastern Jews tried to cope with Ashkenazi secularism and tried to emulate the Israeli elite without giving up the traditional middle-eastern way of life. The result was masorti, a way to accomodote religion and modern life. Today in Israel Mizrachi families will often follow ancient traditions without even telling anyone. Some Mizrachim are Haredim. But mostly the very religious and very secular lifestyles are Ashkenazi things. (I am Ashkenazi myself.)




Whether you have Jewish blood or not is quite irrelevant to me.

As for religion, I have many friends in Israel who are Jewish by nationality but complete and utter atheists by belief and nothing by religion.




It was the Roman government of Judaea that had him killed, not "his people".

The sarcasm about "your people" is duly noted, although I find this a strange point in time to make that observation because Israel is more powerful now than it ever was in its history except perhaps under kings David and Solomon.

Maybe you should talk to your granny again. If she could tell you that Abraham was not an Arab then perhaps she can tell you other things about the ancestors of the Jews too.

What you wrote about how modern Israel came to be, however, was complete nonsense. You just repeated anti-Semitic lies about stealing land and expelling people. Perhaps you should read the history of some Arab villages during the Arab war against Israel. The Jews had neither the power nor the will to "expell" the Arabs and instead pleaded with them to help defend the country because chances were that the British-trained (and British-commandeered) Transjordanian army would simply destroy Israel.

SOME Arab inhabitants helped, notably the Druze and Bedouin. (One of Israel's top-three war heroes was a Bedouin. The other two were an Ashkenazi Jew born in Israel and a Mizrachi Jew from Iraq.)

When you lie this into a conflict between "European" Jews and Arabs you ignore the fact that it was really a conflict between European Jews, local Jews who were hunted down in the newly-created Arab countries, local Bedouin, and local Druze against British-supported nationalist pan-Arab forces on the other side.

And you would know that if you did some reading of original sources.

The University of Haifa has an archive of old newspaper articles. One was particularly impressive from 1947 where the first Jewish and last Muslim mayor of Haifa called on the Arab population of the city to stay and defend the city which was then under Arab siege. But guess what, two-thirds of the Arabs fled, following a call by the attacking Arab forces to leave. The remaining third remained and fought and they WON. The refugees were then eventually replaced with Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

What "oppression" of what "Palestinians"?

If you mean the _Arabs_ living in Israel and the disputed territories, they have a higher standard of living than Egypt.

And "ethnic cleansing" and whatever other anti-Semitic lies you can tell have little impact here. You can convince your fellow racists but not me.

 

You are confused Lula, you keep forgetting that I am speaking of "peoples", not "races".

There is neither a "Palestinian" nor a "Jewish" "race".

But there is a Jewish people.

There is no "Palestinian" people. But there is an Arab people.

There is nothing distinctive "Palestinian" in Palestinian Arabs that is not simply related to their location. They do not have any customs unique to them (i.e. not followed by other Arabs or other non-Arab Palestinians). They do not have a distinct religion or distinct language. And they do not have a history unique to them.

Jews, on the other hand, have distinct customs, a distinct language, and a distinct history. They are quite different from both other Europeand and other Middle-Easterners and other Palestinians.

 

That's about right.

But "lack of an Arab state" strikes me as ridiculous because at that point the Ottoman Empire was already divided up into several dozen Arab states and only two non-Arab states (Israel and Turkey).

"Lack of an Arab state" is hardly the problem.

I would think that perhaps "lack of non-Arab states" was an issue, as any Kurd and Massalith can tell you.