A Leauki's Writings
In the past
Published on June 19, 2008 By Leauki In Pure Technology

(This is a reply to a question asked in the comments section of a previous article about Creationism. Question asked was about examples of scientific research in Islamic countries in the past.)

I am neither a religious scholar nor an expert on Islamic history.

But I do know the word "algebra" comes from Arabic and comes to us via a book written in Islamic Persia over a thousands years ago that describes algebra (as we know it).

Similarly the word "algorithm" is based on the name of another Islamic (Persian?) scholar who wrote a book about using Indian numerals (0123456789).

In fact, almost all of our mathematics (which is not technically a science, I assume) is based on research done in the Muslim world a thousand years ago, which is why we still read and write numbers right-to-left.



Don't believe me? Try these experiments:

Read the following word (spaces between letters are for effect), letter by letter. Hold a hand over the letters you are not yet reading:

C O M P U T E R

Notice how you read it from left-to-right, just like English (and the Latin alphabet) is supposed to be read?

Stay with me, I am coming to a point. Read the next word, from left-to-right:

M A T H E M A T I C S

It works again. Not try both words from right-to-left.

It doesn't work. Apparently English is read from left-to-right. We knew that.

Now try numbers. Using the same method, read the following number from left-to-right:

3 1 4 1 5 9 2 6 5 4

Yes. There is no decimal point in the number. They came later.

Can't tell what the value of the number is? Is it millions? Tens of millions? Hundreds of millions? Billions?

Something doesn't work here.

Try reading the number again, this time start on the right. You know what each digit means because of its position relative to the right side of the number.

3 1 4 1 5 9 2 6 5 4

Now you know if its 3 billions and something or not.

Reading the number from right-to-left works, from left-to-right does not.

Now use these two numbers:

3 1 4 1 5

9 2 6 5 4

And add them up. You can write them down (since you are copying them either right-to-left and left-to-right will work) and write the result under them, under a line, like this:


  3 1 4 1 5

  9 2 6 5 4

-----------

1 2 4 0 6 9

Did you find yourself writing the result from right-to-left?

Do you notice how our number system, which we got from Arabic-speaking Muslims, follows the direction of Arabic (and Hebrew) writing rather than Latin (and Greek) writing?

Now, Roman numerals are written and read from left-to-right, like Latin (and English) text:

M M V I I I

Although, since in contrast to words and Arab numerals the positions are not important, you can also read it right-to-left (or from the inside out, if you make sure to start at a good position).

In modern Hebrew, Arab numerals are used, as in English. But they are easier to read, because you don't have to skip incoming ndigits and read the number backwards to find out what they mean:

"There are 10000 fish in the sea."

"Yesh 00001 dagim baYam." (I reversed the number to simulate right-to-left writing.)

Note that unless you can immediately grasp how many zeroes there are in the number in the English text, you have to skip to the end of the number and read it right-to-left to know which number it is.


Muslims have (back then) made major advances in astronomy and architecture as well, but astronomy is really complicated and I really don't know anything about architecture. They were very advanced in the field of medicine, came up with the theory of bacteria causing diseases, found treatments, basically invented what we now know as dental surgery, and the use of anesthesia. Their books, translated into Latin formed the base of medical science in Europe for centuries.

Of course, many of the "Muslim" researchers were Jews. But the environment in which they worked allowed to scientific advancements unseen in the western (or Christian world) until, well, the age of humanism.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 30, 2008
Sorry, but the premise for what you've written is incorrect. And strangely you even touch on the truth at the beginning. We got our number system from the Arabs, they got it from India. Thats why its called the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. They werent the creators, they just passed it on. Thats not to say they didnt add to it of course (I think they developed fractions) but to claim most of our mathmetics comes from them is a wild inaccuracy.

What you've described is a positional number system. The Hindu-Arabic system wasnt the only one out there either. Although it was probably the first to be "complete" in the sense of what we use today.

Its funny really, I've just been having a look around the internet at this stuff. There almost seems to be secret war going on between cultures to take credit for various inventions.

on Jul 01, 2008

Sorry, but the premise for what you've written is incorrect. And strangely you even touch on the truth at the beginning. We got our number system from the Arabs, they got it from India.


Did you even read my article? I didn't claim that the Arabs invented our number system. I said algebra and other subjects were so heavily researched in the Arab world that we got those concepts from them. At no point did I say what you apparently think I said.

The article was not about the number system (which is Indian), but about how science and research in the Arab world have influenced western society. The point was not how the number system works, but that we (still) use it right-to-left, like the Arabs did when they used it for moire advanced mathematics. You totally missed the point of the article.

 

to claim most of our mathmetics comes from them is a wild inaccuracy.

No, it isn't. Most of our mathematics (outside geometry) does indeed come from the Arabs. You are confusing number systems (Indian) and mathematics (Arabian). (Incidentally, they did not develop fractions.)

 

There almost seems to be secret war going on between cultures to take credit for various inventions.

And some factions really want to misunderstand, don't they?

In short:

1. I didn't say who invented the number system.

2. I said Arabs developed algebra.

3. I said that most of our mathematics come from the Arabs (which is true).

4. I showed how we write numbers from right-to-left still because of that legacy.

Where you figured that I claimed that the Arabs _invented_ those numbers is beyond me. If you had read (and understood) the article, I suppose you would have known that it is unlikely that I wouldn't know where the numbers came from, don't you think?

 

on Jul 01, 2008
Having been a Math Major in College, I would disagree with the science part.

While I am somewhat familiar with the origins of modern day math (especially Algebra and Calculus), much of this came as a V8 moment. Obvious in retrospect, not known by this commenter.

Since math is my first love (and I take it at least a passing fancy of yours), I do find it interesting, even if others find it extremely boring. IN the early days of computer programming (when MINI computers came with a whopping 64k of RAM), using math in programming was essential to minimize code and optimize performance (the antithesis of today I know).

Thanks for the lesson.
on Jul 01, 2008

Having been a Math Major in College, I would disagree with the science part.


Hence the "Science AND Maths" part (emphasis new).



While I am somewhat familiar with the origins of modern day math (especially Algebra and Calculus), much of this came as a V8 moment. Obvious in retrospect, not known by this commenter.


Yeah, that's what happened to me too when I first realised this. When I got more used to writing right-to-left I confronted numbers and thought they stood out. Then I realised that they didn't, but they had in the (left-to-right) past (of mine).

The final push came when an Israeli fellow student of mine (a neighbour in the dorms) revealed to me that Hebrew-speakers see everything right-to-left, including timelines and imagined paths. While it seems obvious (and had even then), it was only then that I understood the simplicity of it.


Since math is my first love (and I take it at least a passing fancy of yours),


You know me, I dabble a bit in everything.

I'm afraid I am not very good at maths, but it's enough for a few number games.


I do find it interesting, even if others find it extremely boring.


It is fascinating, sure.



In the early days of computer programming (when MINI computers came with a whopping 64k of RAM), using math in programming was essential to minimize code and optimize performance (the antithesis of today I know).


Today it's mostly calling (and remembering) APIs. The most "mathematical" part I do is string manipulation (I write installers).

I wrote this a few weekends ago to improve both my Objective C and my reading Arabic:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Not_A_Linguist_Blog/Entries/2008/6/15_Transliteration_Program.html



Thanks for the lesson.


Always welcome.
on Jul 01, 2008
Sorry, seems I didnt make myself understood clearly enough. I'm saying that dealing with numbers from right to left isnt a legacy of arabic. Its a legacy of the system itself.
If you can offer proof to the contrary I'm genuinely interested to know.

on Jul 01, 2008

If you can offer proof to the contrary I'm genuinely interested to know.


You know, with the proof it is a bit difficult. I can only tell you what I know. You are not doing more than that when you tell me that you disagree.

I didn't want to go into that much detail, but if it is wanted, I will.


I'm saying that dealing with numbers from right to left isnt a legacy of arabic. Its a legacy of the system itself.


The "system itself" is position-based. It doesn't require a certain direction in the same way than an alphabet doesn't need a "direction"; only words made up of the symbols do.

Both the Indian and Arabic numerals are based on Brahmi numerals, which were not position-based (but apparently had a zero). That's where the forms of the symbols come from. Brahmi numerals had symbols for "10" and higher numbers as well, similar to to Hebrew numbers (which are also letters).

Indians developed the position-based numerals based on those symbols for numbers. Hindi used the Brahmi script (still does). The Brahmi script (not to be confused with Brahmi numerals) was a descendant of the Aramaic script[1] (i.e. the Hebrew script)[2], brought to India by the Persian empire about 3000 years ago. None of that has anything to do with Arabs or Islam of course.

The Aramaic/Hebrew/Phoenician script was written right-to-left, as was the Brahmic script back then[3] (today Hindi is written left-to-right). That's why Indian numerals are written right-to-left.

Arabs and Persians learned the number system from the Indians in 700 CE and later and also wrote the numbers right-to-left (since their scripts were also written right-to-left, like the original Brahmi script).

Fractions were invented by the Greeks, I think. But the Arabs invented a way to make the Indian number system represent fractions. If you have ever worked with fractions in the binary system you know how difficult it is to make the mental jump from "1/2" to "0.[correct number for the system]".

Arab and Persian (and Jewish) astronomers and mathematicians then used the Indian number system to invent Algebra and other subjects we now take for granted. Mathematics as we know it was literally invented in the Muslim world (except for geometry, as I said).

So, the answer is: you are wrong. The right-to-left writing is not a legacy of the system itself because the system itself works either way (just as Latin was written left-to-right and right-to-left in its early days). Writing direction is not a feature of the concept of writings words (or numbers).

The reason the Indians wrote numbers right-to-left is, ultimately, because the script they used inherited the direction from the Aramaic script.

But the reason _we_ write numbers right-to-left is because the Arabs did it.


Notes:

1. The Aramaic script and the Arabic script are based on the same alphabet, technically an abjad[4] (only consonants and long vowels are written and there are no dedicated symbols for vowels).

2. The Aramaic script and the Hebrew script are the same. That is, the Hebrew script used for the last 2500 years is the Aramaic script. The original Hebrew script looked much like the Phoenician script, and the letters still looked a lot more like the words they once represented. "A" was once an ox. "B" was once a house. "C" or "G" was once a camel.

3. The Brahmi script uses a descendant of the Aramaic abjad, but it uses it as an abugida[5] (each symbol represents a consonant with an attached vowel).

4. "abjad" = glottal stop, /b/, /j/, /d/ = Aleph, Bet, Gimel, Dalet (four first letters of the Aramaic/Hebrew/Arabic/Phoenician alphabet). Aleph is silent.

5. "abugida" = glottal stop and /a/, /bu/, /gi/, /da/ = Aleph, Bet, Gimel, Dalet, each with an attached vowel.


on Jul 01, 2008
Hmm...interesting, not convinced you're right though. But unfortunately where as I might claim to be knowledgeable about maths, I certainly cant claim to know much (well anything really) about the history of languages. So disagreeing on the basis of some quick research is pointless.

Anyway, thanks for explaining your view point.
on Jul 01, 2008

I might claim to be knowledgeable about maths


Ok, let's look at it from the mathematics side.


The number system works based on a radix (10) and digits from 0 to radix - 1, as you know.

Each digit has a value of digit * radix ^ locationWithRegardToFirstDigit.

Hence the digit "1" in the number "10" has a value of

1 * 10 ^ 1 = 10 (i.e. one tenner)

("1" means a location one step to the left.)

The point "." really just marks the location of the first digit (and it does so on the right-hand side of that digit). The digit "4" in the number "0.4" hence has a value of

4 * 10 ^ -1 = 0.4 (i.e. four tenths)

("-1" means a location one step to the right.)

As you can see POSITIVE distances describe distances TOWARDS THE LEFT while NEGATIVE distances describe distances TOWARDS THE RIGHT. That is counterintuitive in a left-to-right world where a typical time line (i.e. a line with numbers assigned to it) would go left-to-right:

----------------------------------------------------
-5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5

Clearly the system evolved in a right-to-left world.


This has nothing to do with languages, btw; only with alphabets and encoding mechanisms. It's Theoretical Computer Science.
on Jul 01, 2008
Hence the "Science AND Maths" part (emphasis new).


I thought we were mentioned separately because we were special.
on Jul 05, 2008
ON A DIFFERENT BLOG:

LEAUKI POSTS: It's _Creationism_, not _Christianity_ that holds science back.

Want examples for that? Look at any majority Muslim country that doesn't teach evolution and instead relies on "Islamic science" (which happens to teach EXACTLY the same, word for word, as the Bible about creation, and, like you, they also take it literally).

LULA POSTS: I'm curious, Leauki, would you name some significant scientific contributions made by Muslims?

LEAUKI WRITES:
(This is a reply to a question asked in the comments section of a previous article about Creationism. Question asked was about examples of scientific research in Islamic countries in the past.)


Leauki,

Thanks for writing this article in response to my question.

Keeping in mind your statement, "It's _Creationism_, not _Christianity_ that holds science back. Want examples for that? Look at any majority Muslim country that doesn't teach evolution and instead relies on "Islamic science",

would you kindly expand upon that or connect it to what you wrote:

Muslims have (back then) made major advances in astronomy and architecture as well, but astronomy is really complicated and I really don't know anything about architecture. They were very advanced in the field of medicine, came up with the theory of bacteria causing diseases, found treatments, basically invented what we now know as dental surgery, and the use of anesthesia. Their books, translated into Latin formed the base of medical science in Europe for centuries.




on Jul 05, 2008
garblade posts:
Sorry, seems I didnt make myself understood clearly enough. I'm saying that dealing with numbers from right to left isnt a legacy of arabic.


I tend to agree.

Until now, I always understood the right to left system used to count, add, subtract, multiply and divide, as well as to calculate square roots and cube roots came from the ancient Chinese.

As a child in elementary school I was given an abacus, an ancient device first used in China and later by the ancient Greeks and Romans, to perfom mathematical problems. That's where I learned the right to left system. The first column on the right is the ones column, etc.

As far as algebra, it was the ancient Babylonians, Chinese, Persians, and the people of India who are given credit with developing and using it.

Ancient Babylonian tablets c. 3100BC contain algebraic problems. The first definitive evidence of the use of algebra appears in the writings of Rhind (Ahmes, an Egyptian mathematician) Papyrus c. 1700 BC.

The Arabs contributed to the study of algebra using positive and negative signs much like they are used today. And during the 800s, the Arabs introduced the 0 from India.

on Jul 07, 2008

Until now, I always understood the right to left system used to count, add, subtract, multiply and divide, as well as to calculate square roots and cube roots came from the ancient Chinese.


The Chinese didn't use Indian numerals until Islamic and Indian traders brought them to China 1200 years ago.



As a child in elementary school I was given an abacus, an ancient device first used in China and later by the ancient Greeks and Romans, to perform mathematical problems. That's where I learned the right to left system. The first column on the right is the ones column, etc.


I don't know if it was first used in China.

The word "abacus" is based on "'BQ" (abaq), which is Hebrew for "dust" (as in the dust you write in to erase it afterwards). Of course that was 800 years before Muhammed.


As far as algebra, it was the ancient Babylonians, Chinese, Persians, and the people of India who are given credit with developing and using it.


The beginnings of algebra are ancient, but it was Arab and Persian mathematicians who made it into the form we know it in today.


Ancient Babylonian tablets c. 3100BC contain algebraic problems. The first definitive evidence of the use of algebra appears in the writings of Rhind (Ahmes, an Egyptian mathematician) Papyrus c. 1700 BC.


True.



The Arabs contributed to the study of algebra using positive and negative signs much like they are used today. And during the 800s, the Arabs introduced the 0 from India.


True.
on Jul 07, 2008

would you kindly expand upon that or connect it to what you wrote:


I can try.

What I meant by "Islamic Science" in quotes is not what the Islamic world produced 1000 years ago when it was at the forefront of research. "Islamic Science" is today's Islamic equivalent to "Creation Science".

At some point Muslim scientists stopped looking at the world and concentrated on finding answers only in the Quran. Scientists became theologists without recognising that they were then working in a different field.

In Islamic countries today Creationism is taught in schools. The Quran is thought to contain all the answers needed and (almost) no (real) scientific research is being done anywhere in the Islamic world. Scientific research today comes from the west (include Russia), Israel, India, and China.

During the golden age of Islam (1000 years ago), Muslims looked for answers to spiritual and legal questions in the Quran and for answers to questions about nature in nature. That has changed.

In the mean time the Christian world has changed from a society where everyone looked for answers only in the Bible to a society where people started to explain nature by looking at nature (Newton, Darwin, Einstein).

The Islamic world today is an immoral mess. Women are being stoned to death for adultery (or perceived adultery), homosexuals are beheaded, minorities are persecuted or even murdered, and self-proclaimed clerics control everything in the lives of all those they can reach.

However, that same society is based on "Islamic" principles that are very much the same as the "Christian" principles we hear so much about. Children in Islamic countries are taught all the good stuff, all the things we hear are necessary for a civilised society: that evolution is wrong, that Creationism is science, that sex before marriage is wrong, that contraception is wrong, that atheism is wrong, that materialism is wrong etc..

I am extremely curious to learn of a "Christian" principle that would make America a better place that has not already been instrumental in destroying Islamic society.

Every country in the world that teaches Creationism instead of evolution is systematically destroying its chances to be at the forefront of research, because an understanding of evolution is needed for medical research, computer science (yes indeed, but I don't think I will explain the connection), genetics, agricultural science and so on.

If you propose that those "Christian" values are (re-)introduced in American schools, you are not creating a path to a better society; because all other societies that have followed that path are in a terrible mess right now.

It is not Christianity (or Islam) that holds science back. It's Creationism in all its forms.

on Jul 10, 2008
It is not Christianity (or Islam) that holds science back. It's Creationism in all its forms.


Are you or are you not a radical jew? You quit your job to learn Hebrew but you think creationism holds back the understanding of nature? Aren't you just trying to eat your cake and have it, too?
on Jul 11, 2008

Are you or are you not a radical jew?


What exactly is a "radical Jew"? Where do you get that? All my writings about religion have either been rather critical or about how I don't know which religion is right, some have been in defence of Islam.

Where do you get "radical Jew" from that?



You quit your job to learn Hebrew but you think creationism holds back the understanding of nature?


Yes.

But now you confuse me. Are students of Hebrew meant to support Creationism? That would surprise me. What do you think Israeli universities teach? I haven't met many vocal Creationists at Haifa U (or Hebrew U for that matter, but I am sure there were some there), they were certainly none in my Hebrew classes.

Did you ever see much support for Creationism among the Jewish communities in America or elsewhere?



Aren't you just trying to eat your cake and have it, too?


Are you saying that learning Hebrew and understanding biology don't go together (or shouldn't)?

I'm not sure I understand you.
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