Israel is fine with a two-state solution. Israel is also fine with Gaza and the West-Bank being part of Egypt and Jordan. Israel has been fine with those two solutions when they already came up. I think we can stop worrying about “Zionist extremists” who don’t exist.
I have seen east-Jerusalem. I don’t think Israel wants it. It’s the most holy site of Judaism that Arabs demand and that Israel wants to keep, not the entire city. Let’s divide Jerusalem, Israelis won’t mind. The Jewish parts and the Old City will be part of Israel and the Arab parts in the east can be a part of Invaderland/Palestine. The only problem is that the Arabs in Jerusalem might not want that. Whenever such an option comes up, thousands of them register for Israeli passports. Hm…
Most international proposals ignore the fact why Israel is fighting.The proposals don't even address how they would get all the Jews dead. In fact, the proposals seem to be built to allow them to survive. The world think that that is not a problem? Look at what the PLO and Hamas say about their wishes. They want a Jew-free Invaderland and they have said so often enough. Most peace plans don’t address that issue.
A two-state solution plan has already been implemented, before 1967. And it could have been implemented by treaty in 1968 when Israel offered to give Gaza and the West-Bank back in exchange for peace.
And what about the refugees? The Jewish refugees from Arab countries don’t want to go back, they have nothing to expect but death and torture. But the Arab refugees from Israel, despite all the things they say about Jews, don’t seem to be expecting such a fate and demand a “return” (to lands they have never lived on, given that it has been three generations).
If we accepted the Saudi plan (1967 borders and return of the “refugees”) we would be back in 1948, a situation which caused the Arabs to start the first war. I don’t see how that would be a good solution, unless the “solution” is about giving the Arabs another shot.
I guess the entire thing really depends on the Palestinian Arabs. Vote for a damn government whose priority is making the country viable and not to destroy Israel and it’s done. That’s all it takes.
Perhaps the PLO can do it now.
But do Palestinian Arabs even want this? Is a viable country of their own really important to women who teach their children that committing suicide while killing Jews is a good thing? Is a viable country of their own really important to sons who would rather kill themselves than not kill a Jew?
Here’s my take on a peace plan, and I realise most independent-minded Israelis will disagree with it, but I think it’s a good idea:
1. The King of Jordan is declared King of Israel and officially enters Jerusalem in that capacity.
2. Israel will remain an independent country with its own democratic government, the king will be a figurehead.
3. Israel will annex the West-Bank and Jordan and Israel will form a citizenship-federation in which all Jews born in either country will be Israeli citizens and all Arabs born in either country will be Arab citizens. (We can find solutions for the other nationalities. For example Druzim can become Israelis too. Bedouins can have their own citizenship system or whatever they wish.)
4. Both Jews and Arabs will be subjects of the descendant of the Sharif of Mecca, i.e. the King of Jordan.
5. The king will govern Transjordan directly and Cisjordan (Israel) only through the selected Israeli government. Israel won’t have a president any more, only a “Lieutenant Governour” elected by the Israeli people who represents the country towards the joint monarchy and, representing the king in right of Jerusalem, towards the international community.
6. During his inauguration ceremony the king will refer extensively to the Quran and celebrate the fact that Allah has helped his people return to their land. He will point out how modern Babylonians tried to prevent it and how another Muslim like Cyrus 2500 years wgo was Allah’s tool to make Allah’s will prevail, even when it was done in the most complicated, roundabout way.
7. Israel can keep the border fence until the attacks stop. Israel will keep all the power she currently has and give it up only voluntarily at her own time.
8. Gaza can be part of this union. Israeli and Transjordanian forces can keep the peace as needed.
9. The Golan Heights remain part of Israel. Syria had no part in the war, and deserves no reward for stopping the attacks once Syria knew she was too weak. Syria will be offered a chance to surrender to the united monarchy.
10. As will Lebanon, which if she decides to join, will become an independent duchy lead by three dukes (Shiite, Sunni, Druze) and an archduke (Christian) under the nominal authority of the king.
11. We will then wait for the Arab and Muslim world to condemn Israel for making the descendant of Muhammed king of Jerusalem.
12. At that point the king will make it clear that his ultimate goal is control over ALL THREE holy cities of Islam. We will then work from that starting point. (The point is not to invade “Saudi” Arabia, but to make it absolutely clear that Jerusalem is as negotiable as Mecca, given that it is the other place of worship.)
13. The new United Monarchy, with control over the advanced military technology of Israel's and the Israeli army as well as excellent ties to Europe, the US, and Russia and other important Arab monarchies (Morocco), will become the unquestioned regional superpower. Iran will not be able to compete with the new Arab Empire and the Gulf will become the energy source for the economic powerhouse at the Jordan river.
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This is pretty much what Weizmann and Faisal had in mind when they first made the pact between Zionists and the Hashemites. Let's finally listen to them.
A bit radical. And I can see the direction it is taking. Still, a muslim world united under the King of Jourdan would be better than the current set up.
I have seen this proposal (not the exact proposal, but similar ones) in the past. ALl have in common a resurgence of the Arabs as a world power. And all include Israel as a willing partner in the partnership. A living viable partner.
But it wont happen. Arabs have lost the initiative to better themselves. Lost at the altar of hate. There is a lesson there, but it wont be learned. I have given up on Mankind being smart enough to learn from history, only force prevents them from repeating it.
Here’s my take on a peace plan, and I realise most independent-minded Israelis will disagree with it, but I think it’s a good idea
Not that good. better than the Two-state solution ... but my proposal is much simpler and more viable and gets Jordon out of the picture ... Jordon does not represent the Palestenians ... or anything for that matter. It is a made-up entity .... like Kwait ...
I am sure your remember my proposal ... it is on the Canadian Model .... One State (Palestine), three provinces , Israel, Gaza and The West Bank.
As in lebanon, The constitution could specify the identity of the President, Prime Minister, Defense Minister and Interior Minister to balance the power in the new State.
the problem with your idea is that palestenians will never accept Jordon as part of the solution. in fact if you really want to be fair ... jordon was part of old palestine/Israel ... so either leave it as is or just make it part of the larger Palestine .... there was never a nation called Jordon ... Israel and Palestine have their historical roots and history far more than many contemporary nations.
But i am glad that you now realize that the Two-State solution does not satisfy anyone except the outside world ... but not the two main parties.
One State is the way to go.... anyway the two sides agree on I am ok with it. I just think my "proposal for the Holy land" is more to their satisfaction. and much simplere..
see my old blog if you like to read the whole thing.
http://thinkaloud.joeuser.com/article/142414/Proposal_for_the_Holy_Land
Transjordan was created by the British to keep the Hashemites in power somewhere after the Saudis drove them out of Mecca. It's as artificial as Saudi Arabia. Before its founding as a monarchy it was part of the British territory "Palestine (Land of Israel)" and before that it was part of one or two Turkish provinces.
Palestine as a territory is older, two years older.
However, there is lots of local Arab Palestinian support for a federation with Jordan under the monarchy:
70 prominent Palestinian professors, business leaders, and members of the legislative councils were invited last month to attend a meeting at the port of Aqaba, Jordan. The meeting was initiated by Ex-prime minister Dr. Majali; the main man behind the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty, to discuss the dead peace process in the region and the future political relationship between the upcoming Palestinian state and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The timing of this invitation was very interesting since it was almost 40 years ago that the West Bank and East Jerusalem, fell out of Jordanian hands into Israeli control in the course of the Six-Day War. Surprisingly the idea of a potential confederation between the West Bank and Jordan surfaced again when many members of the Palestinian delegation raised it with the King.
http://gnblog.com/?p=226
Such a federation including Israel would also finish the project the Hashemites and Zionists started in 1919, before the unfortunate interruption due to (non-monarchical) Arab fascism:
The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement
If we go back to that point, we can forget the entire sad history and all the wars fought between Israel and Arabs will have changed nothing except guarantee the survival of the Jews. All border disputes would be erased, Jewish settlers would be legitimised, Arab claims to property in Israel could be handled according to Turkish/British/Israeli/Jordanian law as required, and everyone would have a proud way out.
The federation of Israel and Transjordan would consist of two countries (Israel and Transjordan) and five nationalities (Jewish, Arab, Armenian, Circassian, and Druze). Apart from the two titular nationalities all nationalities can choose for themselves which country they will be citizens of (Israel, Transjordan, or depending on location). This will guarantee a special privilege for minority groups (they can decide where to vote on an individual basis, details will have to be worked out).
There could be a process for further countries to join, which would include the following requirements:
1. At least one of the candidate country's official languages must be Hebrew or Arabic.
2. The candidate country must accept the Hashemite King as its head of state.
3. The candidate country must guarantee freedom of religion.
4. The candidate country must border an existing member country or a country bordering an existing member country.
5. The candidate country must have a historical connection to Islam or Judaism.
For example, Iraqi Kurdistan could join if it keeps Arabic as an official language and accepts the King as nominal head of state. Iraqi Kurdistan already guarantees freedom of religion, has an acceptable location, and has a historical connection to both Islam and Judaism.
The Arabic language will serve as a connecting language for diplomacy and trade. (Hebrew is mentioned so that Israel itself can join.) Other local languages spoken by the many non-Arab peoples will be elevated to regional official languages as long as each member country itself agrees to use Arabic for diplomatic purposes. Arabic will also be taught at schools.
The pagan name "Palestine" would vanish with the founding of the federation.
Each country will be represented in Amman by a special ambassador-senator and each nationality will also be represented by a senator. So in the beginning the senate advising the King on federal matters will consist of two ambassador-senators and five nationality-senators. All normal matters of state including treaties within the federation will be handled by each country's own parliament or government.
Note that if Lebanon should join, the Maronites will be free to decide whether they are Arabs or Phoenicians, and the Druze of Lebanon will become part of the Druze nationality. They will remain Lebanese citizens. The Lebanese currently living in Israel will also remain Lebanese citizens (not Transjordanian citizens).
Dream on.
Truth is anything that does not include the death of all the Jews or the complete removal of all Jews from Israel will not be accepted. that's the long and short of it.
I agree with MM 100% A negotiated settlement between the Israelis and Arabs of the region isn't possible. From all indications, the Arabs will only be satisfied when all the Jews are driven into the Mediterranean.
Well, at least a few folks have it right.
Leauki,
If I were Israel, I would be sick of those jerks rocketing the city at will anyway. I wish Israel could just received the entire inheritance that bible speaks of, ya know. I am pretty sure that the Jewish nation can take most anybody around em! GO ISRAEL!
Absolutley but the truth of the matter is it's never gonna happen. God is protecting the Jews and will continue to do so to the end. It's the same old story repeated and repeated for centuries yet here we are, Jews are still here. They are not going anywhere no matter how hard the extermination. The Jews always end up as pall bearers at their enemies' funerals.
I've been saying here on JU for the past three years this stuff was going to happen. Keep your eyes open for the "Savior" who will "save the day" with his peace treaty....... possibly a "seven year peace treaty." When that comes forth, pack your bags and find a good hiding spot.
I agree with MM 100% A negotiated settlement between the Israelis and Arabs of the region isn't possible.
I disagree. I have faith.
I have met many Arabs and Muslims who are not only willing to live with Israel but who actively support the country.
The Druzim and Bedouins fighting for Israel are concept proof. But they need our help. They need us to acknowledge them. King Abdullah's great grand father made a pact with the Zionists. He didn't do it because he wanted the Jews dead.
Remember the Shoah. And compare it to Germany today. Things change.
God is protecting the Jews and will continue to do so to the end.
You are right and it is remarkable.
So many missile and mortar attacks and so few victims on the Israeli side. Muslim extremists like to say that everything is Allah's will, but they have a hard time understanding why their attacks are becoming less and less effective. What is Allah doing?
May G-d continue to protect the Jews of Israel and their Bedouin, Druze, and Arab allies!
And may He help Hamas realise that the only way to peace is not to fight.
its more likely because the Hamas relies on Allah to win the war and Isreal relies on a modern army.
In my experience "Allah" tends to be on the side of the modern army.