"There is no doubt that the Jewish occupation of a part of Palestine constitutes great oppression, which we have not known how to deal with. When, in the early 1930s, we were offered 80 percent of Palestine, while the Jews were offered 20 percent, we rejected the offer. In the late 1940s, we were offered 49 percent of Palestine, and the Jews 51 percent, and we rejected that [offer], as well. Today, we are begging them to give us a mere 22 percent of what remains of Palestine after their complete occupation of it in 1967, and Israel is refusing to do so, offering us no more than 20 percent - as if they want to taunt and defeat us, and to remind us of the 1930s…"

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD213208

(Note that the living standard in the "oppressed territories" is higher than in Jordan and Egypt.)

Finally, I would like to know if there are ANY Jewish holy sites, in Hevron or Jerusalem or anywhere in the world that "Muslims" would allow the Jews to keep and what "Muslims" would do if Jews made similar claims on Mecca and Medina.

WHile this is a popular talking point, the reality of actions (and often words) belies this lie.  Simply put, the murdering bigots in the muslim world hate all non-muslims.  period.  But Jews seem to warrant an extra effort and hatred on their part.

To be fair, they hate other Muslims too.

The Massalith in Darfur are devout Muslims and are being persecuted by the Arab government of Sudan just the same.

The Kurds of Iraq and Syria are mostly Muslims (there are a few Yezidis), and much good did it for them.

My point still stands. There are Muslim friends of Israel and the conflict has nothing to do with Islam.

Next article: http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/331877/Israels_Muslim_Friends_II

I think we both now agree that it is a political issue. which is in fact a great step forward.

Now when i say "Muslims" are involved it is not because the root of the issue is "religious", and i am the one who insisted all the time that the issue IS political, but because Muslims and Jews allover the world have a stake in how the issue is resolved. of course that stake is, Jerusalem as you know. In other words resolving the conflict must consider the fact that palastenians and Israelis do not have the sole authority to resolve it anyway they like.... the solution must be acceptable to Muslims and Jews in general for it to be really a lasting peace.

I dont think that last point is impossible to achieve either. i just wanted to point it out so all parts of the conflict are clear to all.

I believe if the leaders of the two side agree on the basic fact that both of us agree on, the conflict would be resolved in a short time.

keep in mind that i am not so naive to think that all the past between Israelis and Arabs will be forgotten immediately, wounds on both sides will take time to heal but the process could, and must, be started by a solution that satisfies both sides including Muslims and Jews in general.

If it is political, it must be between the two peoples.

The fact that so many religions declare Jerusalem their holy city has nothing to do with politics. The simple fact on the ground is that most people in Jerusalem, Jews and Arabs, don't want to be ruled by the PLO. (You will find that whenever it looks as if East-Jerusalem were to be given to the PLO, Arabs in East-Jerusalem apply for Israeli passports in increasing numbers. You will also find that most Israeli Arabs routinely vote for Zionist parties.)

Is there any solution for Jerusalem _you_ would accept that would leave the most holy site of Judaism as accsible to Jews as the most holy site of Islam is to Muslims?

There simply cannot be a solution acceptable to both sides. It's impossible.

It's the three million compromise. Israel just cannot accept it.

And don't tell me that Israel's enemies don't want to kill all the Jews. They keep saying that they want do exactly that, they worked with professionals (the Nazis) before Israel was even independent, and they routinely blow up Jewish schools and kindergardens (the so-called "resistance"; thank G-d I'm not a child any more). If you don't believe it I invite you to dress up as a Jew, wear a t-shirt with a Star of David and walk through any Arab city and see what happens. The result you'll see is the reason there won't be peace soon.

Israel forgave Germany after just three decades. I don't know what Arabs have Israel to forgive for. Shooting back when attacked? Occupying a territory and making it richer than the two neighbouring countries? Providing health care to Arab children? Delivering electricity to Gaza even though the people of Gaza shoot rockets at the plant workers?

"When a Palestinian woman gave birth to twins in an Israeli hospital she experienced what it is like to be the target of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip."

"Iman Shafii finally became pregnant. During an ultrasound examination, doctors discovered four small embryos. The first died in the fifth month of pregnancy and the second died a few weeks later. Shafii was admitted to the Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, but the condition of the two remaining embryos became increasingly fragile. "You have to go to Israel," the doctor told her."

"Her only impression of Israel has been the one she gets on Palestinian television, which usually shows tanks and soldiers, and celebrates attacks, like the recent shooting inside a Talmud school in Jerusalem, as acts of heroism. But now a doctor wearing a yarmulke walks into the room, says "Shalom" and asks her in English how she is feeling."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,540689,00.html

Can you even imagine Arabs to do the same for Jews? Can you imagine a story from the, say, 1950s when Israel was still a developing country, about a Jewish woman giving birth in a Jordanian hospital under Israeli fire (if Israel were to shoot at hospitals like the Arabs do)?

And do you know what's so interesting about this? It's not that Israel provides health care services to her enemies, that's just part of the Jewish faith. It's interesting because of this:

"In Gaza's fields, Palestinian women were trained to plant explosives, fire light weaponry and sniper rifles, and launch mortar shells and Qassam rockets. Samer Ibrahim Subuh joined this force, where she became an expert in preparing fertilizer-based suicide bomb explosive belts."
"Her first student was her husband, who she taught how to mix chemicals and to turn them into bombs. A short time later, her husband discovered that Samar was pregnant, but this did not prevent her from continuing her plans for murder."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3160145,00.html

The simple fact is that this war wouldn't happen if not for Arab attempts to murder Jews.

I am convinced that any Israeli Jew who happens to find himself in a Gaza hospital would simply be tortured and murdered.

And that's the conflict.

It's not a conflict between Islam and Judaism, it's a conflict between murderers and doctors.

And if you can find a story of a Gaza hospital (devoid of terrorists shooting rockets from its windows) trying to save a Jewish life or two while under Israeli rocket fire and a story of a female Israeli Jew planning the murder of Arab children, supported by her government and the vast majority of Jews in Israel, we can start talking about reconciliation between two guilty parties.

But you cannot keep telling me that Islam does not condone terrorism and then insist that we have to treat the two parties, terrorists and Israelis, as morally equivalent.

Terrorism is either evil and un-Islamic, in which case Israel is the good guy and her enemies are the bad guy.

Or terrorism against Jews is allowed "resistance", in which case I would have to take back my claim that Islam is not a terror religion.

What a religion is or is not can not be subject to a personal judgment as you imply here.

Any Religion's position on any thing is defined by its Divine Text and its correct understanding not by any indidvidual's opinions or judgment.

your position is based on the definition of "terrorism" and that is a very relative and subjective matter.

Stories and examples dont make a principle ....

I think until you look at an issue with an unbiased mind you will never reach a solution to it.

as long as emotions get in the thinking-process, there is no way to reach a logical solution to any issue.

Terrorism is the strategy of attacking civilian targets purposefully.

And that's evil and forbidden by Islam (and other religions and laws).

There is nothing "relative" about it, unless you venture into territory like "but if Jews are the target it's OK" or "but all Israelis are soldiers and hence military targets".

Yes, I have a very strong bias against shooting rockets at schools, particularly at kindergartens. Perhaps it is "subjective" because I once attended a school that was shot at. But ultimately I am PROUD that no Arab country has to keep special rooms in its schools in case some Jew fires a rocket into the children.

I have heard the proposals of Hamas and Yasser Arafat's uncle.

Any other offers?