The point was Saddam was a killer of "muslims", but that ignores that the act was killing IRANIAN muslims. Hussein was also Sunni, and the underlying racial and ethnic divisions mean as much to these people as Islam. Given that Iranians have killed their share of Sunnis, and have at times been martially opposed to organizations like Hamas and Fatah, the fact that Saddam killed Iranians probably isn't going to bother them much.

I guess it would be like someone asking why we were killing European Christians during many of the US's wars. Why would, say, the US be happy that the French aristocracy fell, they were Christians, after all, right? The author here seems to be saying that they aren't good Muslims for mourning someone who killed Muslims, but Christianity has had its share of bloody infighting for reasons other than religion, haven't we?

Does that mean we aren't good Christians? If so, are we hypocrites for mourning, say Abe Lincoln or George Washington, who were responsible for killing a butt load of Christians.

Thanks for the explanation. Now it makes sense. But I think Andrew was referring to Saddam's genocide (again I could be wrong, but that was my assumption) against his own countrymen, and not necessarily the I&I war.

But you could be right, I just read it differently.

Well, the Kurds aren't Muslims traditionally, are they? He did kill a lot of Iraqi Shia, but I doubt enough to be the single largest killer of muslims of all time. I assumed he meant the Iran/Iraq war, which did kill a LOT of Muslims.

I'm still not sure that would make him the worst of all time, but that's not something that would be easy to pin down, I guess.

Well, the Kurds aren't Muslims traditionally, are they?

Well, shiver me timbers! I always assumed they were, but checking up on it, apparently they are not. My mistake.

Well the Palestinians are the same. Like I said, you won't find the word "Palestine" in the Koran, but neither will you find Canaan, or Jerusalem. You will find at least the archaic equivalent of "Palestine" in Joel.

I am not sure if I missed it or not but it seems people forget that before the new nation of Israel got started the Jews that lived in the area were called Palestinians. So to answer the original question NO! Palestinians are not Muslims. The Arabs that lived in the area were called Arabs, Lebanese, Syrians, and Egyptians. All the Palestinians were killed off when the original nation of Israel too the land so finding ancestors will be hard to find which is why the Jews took the name to help reestablish a homeland.

To BakerStreet

Thanks for ur explanations !

Encore une fois, et je ne sais combien de fois on doit le répéter, l'islam et les musulmans ne forment en aucun cas un seul bloc monolithique, c'est toujours à prendre avec des pincettes... A bon entendeur !

while you insist that Muslims stick to the Mohhamed-era ideals.

As long as they claim that that is what they are and should be doing; yes.

But I think Andrew was referring to Saddam's genocide (again I could be wrong, but that was my assumption) against his own countrymen, and not necessarily the I&I war.

I was referring to both.

And I would expect a good Muslim to mourn any deaths, particularly Muslim deaths, and not celebrate the person responsible for the deaths.

I would also expect a good Christian to mourn any deaths, particularly Christian deaths, and not celebrate the person responsible for the deaths.

A Christian who celebrates a murderer, particularly a murderer of Christians, is NOT a good Christian.

And a Muslim who celebrates a murderer, particularly a murderer of Muslims, is NOT a good Muslim.

"Palestine" is not a name like "Canaan" (which I used here as a neutral choice). "Palestine" is SPECIFICALLY what the pagans named the area to ERASE its connection with the G-d of Judaism (i.e. with Allah).

I would expect a follower of the one true god (i.e. Allah) to REJECT a pagan name for a holy land, ESPECIALLY when that name was given to the land specifically to erase the land's connection with Allah.

The Quran refers to the land as the land that G-d gave to the people of Israel. That would be the way to call the land in the most Islamic sense.

But "Palestine" is the pagan name.

And celebrating the death of a murderer of Persians also doesn't qualify one as a good Muslim.

Or perhaps I am mis-understanding the religion?

""Palestine" is not a name like "Canaan" (which I used here as a neutral choice). "Palestine" is SPECIFICALLY what the pagans named the area to ERASE its connection with the G-d of Judaism (i.e. with Allah)."

Eh, like I said, the Old Testament refers to that land as Palestine, so the Jews would have adopted that name hundreds of years before there WAS Islam. "Canaan" is not in the Koran, and neither is Jerusalem, and the only times "Israel" is used it refers to people, not a place.

What name do you propose they call it, given the fact that modern Israelis use the term "Palestine" and "Palestinian" all the time?

"I would expect a follower of the one true god (i.e. Allah) to REJECT a pagan name for a holy land, ESPECIALLY when that name was given to the land specifically to erase the land's connection with Allah."

You're aware that there were no Muslims around during the the Old Testament era and Roman empire, right? So given that Islam was hundreds of years after the word came into use, no doubt a lot of pagan names were already common "official" names. Given you find the word in Joel, it seems odd you think it has anything to do with Islam.

"The Quran refers to the land as the land that G-d gave to the people of Israel. That would be the way to call the land in the most Islamic sense."

So when you refer to non-Israeli Palestine, you'll be saying "the land that God gave to the people of Israel where now live non-Israelis"??? That seems, well, a bit long. If you would, revue the Koran and tell me what Koranic name they should use.

"Or perhaps I am mis-understanding the religion?"

So far as I know there's never been a US war where we didn't cheer the deaths of our enemies. There have been many times in US history we've hailed generals who killed many Christians. Heck, we hailed generals who killed AMERICANS in the civil war...

Seriously, answer this. Were Americans bad Christians for mourning the death of Ulysses S. Grant or Abraham Lincoln? Under his leadership how many American Christians were killed?

would expect a follower of the one true god (i.e. Allah) to REJECT a pagan name for a holy land, ESPECIALLY when that name was given to the land specifically to erase the land's connection with Allah.

I would expect that you would not want to make this statement since Jews are not pagans. The Jews that chose to settle in the area called themselves Palestinian until they declared the land the nation of Israel after the UN gave them the land as a homeland for the Jews. If you do a little research you will find that Islam recognizes Israel as a nation and a people. Keep in mind that Muslims owe their heritage to the Jews since they are the children of Abraham. I would also suggest you study harder because Islam is the youngest monotheistic religion coming up about 700 years after Christ showed up on the scene.

I would expect that you would not want to make this statement since Jews are not pagans.

??? I don't see where you are coming from here. I never said Jews were pagans.

If you do a little research you will find that Islam recognizes Israel as a nation and a people. Keep in mind that Muslims owe their heritage to the Jews since they are the children of Abraham.

Ehm, that was sort of my point when I pointed out "Palestinian" inconsistencies with Islam.



I would also suggest you study harder because Islam is the youngest monotheistic religion coming up about 700 years after Christ showed up on the scene.


And when exactly did I say anything different??? Did you even read my article?

Seriously, answer this. Were Americans bad Christians for mourning the death of Ulysses S. Grant or Abraham Lincoln?

No. A good Christian would mourn the death of another decent person, as I said.

You seem to assume that I share your apparent view of Lincoln and Grant being evil people? I do not. I do not blame them for the deaths caused by a war they had to fight to preserve the nation they swore to serve.

I blame the south for keeping slaves, for claiming that individual rights of people are "state's rights", and for breaking the pact with the northern states by rebelling against a legitimate government.

BUT if any self-proclaimed Christian would mourn Lincon's death BECAUSE of the more questionable acts of his, THEN I'd say that perhaps that Christian is not a good Christian.

"You seem to assume that I share your apparent view of Lincoln and Grant being evil people?"

Nope, what you said was a good Muslim wouldn't mourn the death of the greatest "murderer" of Muslims. The brutality of the North during the civil war easily equaled Hussein, and has anyone been responsible for killing more Americans than Lincoln? Sherman is synonymous with a war of attrition against civilians, and yet they begged him to run for President AFTERWARD.

You just differ on "murder" and what it means. You blame the South, but the North baited the military conflict over an ideal, and broke peace agreements to do it. Grant, Sherman, Lincoln all would be considered war criminals now in my opinion. Yet, we celebrated their victories, and we mourned their deaths.

We celebrated the deaths of "japs" in WW2, we rejoiced when we heard the newsreels tell us the "kraut" body count. Good Christians? We make people like Richard the Lionhearted heroes and he had Jews KILLED.

Given we have photos of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein and that the US funded HUssein during his largest effort to "murder" muslims... well, we have no right to condemn the Palestinians for being a little conflicted now, do we? When we opposed the Iranians he was our friend, too.

As for the word they use for "Palestine", I think I've pointed out it holds no water. I've asked you to point out the appropriate Koranic term and you can't, because there isn't one. "Palestine" was in use long before Islam came to be, so you really can't pretend it is a term that was used to harm Islam, or Judaism, considering Jews were using it too.

Killing in a war is not "murder".

I've asked you to point out the appropriate Koranic term and you can't,

"The Quran refers to Canaan as the land G-d gave to the people of Israel"

Accept that as an answer or don't. But stop pretending that I didn't give you what I consider the answer to your question.