Incredible.

Maybe they are right, maybe we're wasting our money and resources on Israel.  If you and Prs. Peres want to imagine Israel has done it without help, maybe you should be willing to insist we leave you alone to prove it.

Very much so.  The politicians bluster, but the people remember.  I have never seen any animosity from Germans towards Americans like you see in France.  I think Merkel's caving to Obama just recently, while very misguided, is an example of the very issue you seem to think does not exist.

I, for one, dont' want to see that happen, but I resent Prs. Peres denying the help we have offered throughout the history of Israel. 

Perhaps trashing is too strong a word.  However, it is apparent that his speech has been taken as a slight towards the US by at least one informed citizen.  That in itself does not bode well as there is a great debate going on in the USA now about the Support for Israel, with the current administration trying its damnedest to throw them under the bus, and opposition, LIKE Parated2k, trying to prevent that from happening.  And yet he perceives a slight.  Peres has some back tracking to do.  Putin is not going to rush to the aid of Israel when Obama cuts off all aid for "perceived" human rights violations.

Well, I don't know what speech of Peres' you imagine you read but it seems like you have decided to get into an anti-Peres frenzy and there is nothing I can do against it. What's the point of telling you again and again that he didn't actually say what you seem to think he said if it just gets you going again?

 

You must know a different Germany than I.

The French are more vocal (and more anti-American than the Germans) but Germany is a close second. I still remember what Germany did in 2002 and 2003 when a common diplomatic front against Iraq could have avoided war and Germany instead decided to oppose America no-matter-what, with Schroeder even campaigning (and winning elections) on a platform of opposition to the US.

 

The people don't remember. You'd be surprised. Some remember, but they are dying out. My generation is almost uniformly anti-American and it is only slowly changing, unfortunately mostly because Islam is now perceived as a worse evil.

 

I notice you shrug off "almost 20%" of Israel's defense budget pretty cavalierly.  Perhaps you'd like to see Israel defend itself without it.

Because it ultimately isn't as much as you first implied.

 

I am too young for this, but Shimon Peres sure remembers those days.

That was his very point.

Israel did defend herself without it.

American financial support helped Israel avoid further wars but it did not WIN Israel any wars.

Peres fought in the Haganah and the IDF in the 1940s, WITHOUT American (government) money. He was instrumental in getting first French and then British (not American) support.

So, yes, when he talks about how Israel won wars alone, he is right. He was there. He fought those wars.

 

And he hasn't.

What he did do was tell the truth: Israel never asked the US to send soldiers to die, unlike so many other allies of the US who did exactly that. The fact that Israel and the US have been allies since AFTER the great wars doesn't mean anything for the time during those great wars.

 

You sound like any other entitlement baby.  Has Israel become so dependent on help from the US and other countries, they don't even appreciate it anymore?  Or should we just shut up and cough up more because we somehow "owe" it to Isreal?

The current administration has actually increased financial and military help for Israel.

This is, ironically, one of my criticisms. I don't see the benefit of giving more money to the terrorists and then, on the other hand, help Israel become stronger so she can defend herself against those stronger terrorists. It can only lead to war, if to a war that Israel will again survive. (And then the demonstrations will start again world-wide.)

There is a lot Israel can do for the US. One of the things is being more cost-effective than the other allies, although that doesn't seem to be appreciated much. Another is to help diplomatically. Israel is very popular in certain parts of Africa which the US are as of yet uninterested in. Another is intelligence. A while ago I linked to an article that even the "Democratic Underground" linked to about how Israel tried to prevent 911 by following those very terrorists and feeding information to the US (who didn't want it).

But the one thing I doubt Israel and Peres can do for the US is claim that the US helped Israel win her wars.

One thing is that Israel did win her wars alone, or at least without military help from the US. Another thing is that the Arabs keep telling themselves that "Big Satan" helped "Little Satan". I don't see the point of re-inforcing that stupid legend (or how it would make Americans feel better if it was).

I don't know why Ted perceives a slight. To me it seems like he read a different speech. And I don't know how Peres could backtrack. He spoke about European countries, not the US. The only thing he said about the US was that Israel never asked the US to send her sons to war for Israel. If that is perceived as a slight by the US, I don't know what Israel could do. We don't want Americans to die for us.

 

He said that not only haven't we, but we would never, even though we have deployed troops to Israel who were willing to fight if need be.

What war has Israel won on it's own?  Which of your wars were you not heavily financed and armed by other countries?  Yes, you may have fought on your own.. and fought very well, I might add... but to say Israel won on it's own is a bold faced lie.

...

 

Yet Isreal is and never has been on its own.  The very existence of the nation proves that.

When did he say that you would never???

Didn't you say you deployed _600_ troops? Did they ever fight?

I am sure they are willing to fight and will fight. But it's still true that Israel hasn't asked them do fight at the front where they risk death. Israelis have always fought for themselves (apart from that episode in Lebanon with the Christian militia).




Both the War of Independence and the Six-Day-War were fought and won by Israel alone.

Sure, there was financial support and weapons were bought. But the other side had such support as well (and more of it).

But the main financial support for Israel in the 1940s came not from the US or any other country's government but from Jews, from "Israel".

I don't know what you consider "winning a war alone", but winning a war using only your own soldiers and weapons bought with your own money with that money coming from your own people is for me "winning a war alone".

And I don't consider US aid to Israel after the Six-Day-War instrumental to winning the War of Independence.

Perhaps you are referring to this:

In January 1948, the treasurer of the Jewish Agency was convinced that Israel would not be able to raise more than $7–8 million from the American Jewish community. Meir traveled to the United States and managed to raise $50 million, which was used to purchase arms in Europe for the nascent state. Ben-Gurion wrote that Meir's role as the "Jewish woman who got the money which made the state possible", would go down one day in the history books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir#Pre-state_political_role

As far as I know the majority of this money came from American Jews and other Americans, but the American government.

So yes, Israel fought those wars ALONE, or as alone as you can fight a war these days.

That is not the feeling Jews had during the Holocaust and during the War of Independence.

And it is not the feeling Israelis have today.