That's true, but only if you're prepared to go the whole hog and exterminate all opposition. There's no point regularly destroying homes and then leaving the people who were in them alive. It's counter productive and no one has had any excuse to do so since Kautilya explained in copious detail why it's a bad move back in the 3rd century BC.

Now I think about it, overreaction probably is, as you say, the wrong word. It's an under-reaction. If you exterminate all possible opposition (ie if you be as evil as you think the world thinks Israel is), you can be heavyhanded. But if that's not your aim, then any incident of heavyhandedness is a nail in the coffin of your peace plans.

There has never been anything stopping Israel from using civil/police responses to terrorist strikes (it's not like they kill more than carcrashes, after all) and spending their billions buying Palestinian trust with work programs, schools, hospitals, etc. Sure, the first decade won't look any different to now. But if you convince ordinary people that the dark days are over, and that Israel genuinely wants Palestinians to be successful, independent, strong people, Palestinians will root out the terrorists themselves, if only because it interferes with their profits. Subversion through generosity is the path to a peace where you can come out looking like the good guys.

The international community will NOT allow any move that would end the war (unless the war ends with the death of all Jews).

Israel is being as aggressive as it can be (but not as aggressive as it should be).

The point is that it works. Jews have never had a higher survival rate than in the last 60 years. And the wall, the military, rebuilding the odd house, and all the security measures are all-in-all cheaper than losing villages to Arab raiders occasionally.

Without Israel's military power and "overreactions" middle-eastern Jews would simply be hunted down and murdered like the Kurds were before they were victorious and like the Africans are in Sudan now. And we know from the Shoah that the rest of the world will not speak up or help.

It would be different if the Arabs had a history of tolerance towards non-Arabs in the last 100 years. But they don't. And we know what happens to non-Arabs when the Arabs have power over them. They are now like the German where in the 1930s and 1940s.

And we know from the 1940s that IF such a group of people have the chance to kill as many Jews as they like, the world WILL NOT stop them.

The world will wait until it's over and then liberate the remaining 10%.

Sorry, but that's not good enough for me.

Exterminating the terrorists wouldn't be evil. Nobody had any problem with killing German Nazis, I don't know why Arab Nazis are better.

Israel has done this for years. But the Arabs have destroyed the stuff Israel built for them, including hospitals and the green houses they got when the Gazan Jews left.

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/04/TheSixDayWar.shtml

Today people think that Israel was better armed and won the war easily. In reality it was a very close thing and a complete miracle that it was over so quickly.

The very idea that Israel wanted a war that was most likely to end with the complete destruction of Israel and extermination of its people is laughable.

Let's be honest. It's called Palestine because it is Palestine. Calling Palestine Isreal is like calling Texas Northern Mexico. And just who are the Jews anyway? I keep hearing that Palestine is somehow their ancestral homeland from which they were forcibly evicted and which was theirs for thousands of years before the Arab invader. But Jews just look like white people to me. I have even claimed to be a Jew before, and I was offered a free trip to my homeland. Even they can't tell each other apart from other white people.

So I did some research. And I came up with this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgienblogspotcom/3418616432/. Basically, Ashkenazi Jews, who are most of the Jews, by the way, and Leauki is probably one of them, are decended from Caucasions. Big suprise, seeing as they are white people. They never even lived in Israel. I don't mean to seem anti-semitic, so for those from the Middle East (They were called something like Sephardic Jews), just know I'm not against you. You deserve the right to live democratically within your homeland, along with the other people who deserve to live there in peace. But to the white people who stole the homes of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and wonder why they are trying to kill you, get a clue. 

Even if this weren't true, Jews claim that you can convert to Judaism. So, if a Palestinian converts, does Palestine then become his ancestral homeland again? And if so, isn't this a contradiction of terms?

If I'm totally wrong here, send a reply my way, but this whole Israel thing seems like a scandal to me. 

You are really wrong.

Point for point:

1. "Palestine" is the Hebrew and Phoenician word for "invaderland". I assure you that that is not the real name of a country.

2. It was thousands of years, it was hundreds of years. The Arabs controlled it for 400 years after that. Then it was a bunch of European Crusader kingdoms. Then it became Turkish. I don't know where this weird idea comes from that the region is "Arab". North-Africa and the middle east were part of Turkey until World War 1 when the region became French and British (and Italian). Then the Europeans handed most of it to the Arabs, except part of Israel which they gave to the Jews. The idea that all of that is "Arab" is pure imperialism.

3. Jews have lived in Israel during that entire time, from 3300 years ago to today. The Arabs arrived 1300 years ago, the Turks arrived about 800 years ago. The first Turkish rulers were the Mameluks. (http://www.netneurotic.de/Historic/Historic.png)

4. Both Jews and Arabs are white as are all other peoples who live in the middle east. Some Jews are black. The majority are white. All Arabs in "Palestine" are white. (Why would they be non-white??? They are Caucasians like the Jews are and their common ancestry lies a mere few thousands years ago.)

5. Ashkenazim are descended from the same people as non-Ashkenazi Jews. Both variations descend from Israelites and whichever people they mixed with.

6. No Jew or Zionist denies the Arabs' right to live in Israel. It's the "Driving the Jews into the sea" paradigm that's a problem, not the existence of Arabs. The conflict started when the Arabs attacked, not when the Jews moved into the land they bought.

7. The Zionists bought land and Jews settled there. The claim that the Jews stole the land is an anti-Semitic lie.

8. The majority of Israelis descend from middle-eastern Jews from Arab countries. Those Jews fled the Arab countries.

9. Sephardic Jews are Jews from Spain and Morocco. You are confusing them with Mizrachim from Arab countries and Iran.

10. If a "Palestinian" converts, Israel will become his ancestral homeland. Yes. Why do you ask?

11. The whole Israel thing seems like a scandal to you because you fell for some anti-Semitic lies and apparently didn't have a problem with repeating them. Glad I could help.

I think you are one of those weird reverse-racists who believes that being white makes one evil (why else would you bring up the alleged whiteness of Jews?). Oddly enough, the white supremacists don't consider Jews "white". The entire skin colour thing is not only meaningless in any political context, but especially here, when it concerns two _white_ peoples. Arabs and Jews are as related as the French and the Germans. Skin colour doesn't come into it.

It's funny that back when you had to be European and white to be a good person, Jews were considered "Palestinians" and were asked to go back to "Palestine". And now when being European and white is bad, Jews are suddenly white and European (and should leave "Palestine" obviously).

Note that those Jews who believed they were "white" and European perished in the Shoah.

Oh, and it's called "Palestine" because the Romans named it after the Israelite's former enemies, the Philistines.

The Philistines were colonists from Greece, called "Philistines" because that is Hebrew for "invader". "Palestine" derives from the Hebrew for "invaderland".

These are pictures I took in Israel a few weeks ago:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Resources/AccoRothschild.html

Luckily, the West, for all its myriad faults, doesn't agree that extermination is an appropriate response to extermination, so we still have the German people with us. I'm starting to get the impression that you want to see an Arab genocide. Is that really what you want/are prepared to support?

If so, it's clear people in the middle east deserve each other.

Why do you equate German Nazis with all Germans and terrorists and Arab Nazis with all Arabs?

10. If a "Palestinian" converts, Israel will become his ancestral homeland. Yes. Why do you ask?

Because ancestral means you are decended by blood. I was led to believe that was the argument for the Jew's right to Palestine, which is a pretty weak argument in any case.

For example, I've heard that if your mother is Jewish, so are you, even if you don't want to be. This indicates a heritability of the "race". However, it seems that the "race" is really just a culture (including a religion). So you shouldn't be Jewish unless you act like one. Strange. So, I could be Jewish if I decided to become one, regardless of my ancestry. Yet, if my mother is a Jew, then I am one too? You are going to have to explain that one to me. 

4. Both Jews and Arabs are white as are all other peoples who live in the middle east. Some Jews are black. The majority are white. All Arabs in "Palestine" are white. (Why would they be non-white??? They are Caucasians like the Jews are and their common ancestry lies a mere few thousands years ago.

So, this is not racism.

5. Ashkenazim are descended from the same people as non-Ashkenazi Jews. Both variations descend from Israelites and whichever people they mixed with.

I don't really think they necessarily decend from anyone. I could be "more Jewish" by blood than you (assuming this means I have more Hebrew blood in me), and still not be Jewish. You could be a completely Spanish convert, and I could be half Jewish on my father's side. You would be Jewish but I would not.

7. The Zionists bought land and Jews settled there. The claim that the Jews stole the land is an anti-Semitic lie.

Are you sure about this? I thought Palestine was given away after WWII when the Turks were defeated, ignoring the people who lived there. 

8. The majority of Israelis descend from middle-eastern Jews from Arab countries. Those Jews fled the Arab countries.

Who cares who they descend from if they descend from Caucasions? They could just as well be descended from my great great great grandfather. In fact, my great great great grandfather could have been a Jew, if he had wanted. It seems Jews are as different racially from me as the French are from the British. And no one cares about that. It's just "white".

11. The whole Israel thing seems like a scandal to you because you fell for some anti-Semitic lies and apparently didn't have a problem with repeating them. Glad I could help

I don't get this word "anti-Semitic". Doesn't that mean against Arabs and Jews? I mean are the two people are so closely related that you accidentally included the people who would be most "anti-Semitic" with that word. That really says something about how stupid this feud is. This whole thing is so screwed up. Stop killing each other.

I think you are one of those weird reverse-racists who believes that being white makes one evil (why else would you bring up the alleged whiteness of Jews?)

I hope not. This would make me evil, seeing that I am white. I brought that up because it is clear to me that Jews (and apparently Arabs) are not different from me racially. Essentially, my point is this: we are the same. You just have a different culture. It's like being Canadian versus American. So why is everyone so "racist" against each other here? I am not even racist. I don't really care who you are, as long as you share common interests with me. So I really can't understand how people of the same race can be so racist against each other.

It's funny that back when you had to be European and white to be a good person, Jews were considered "Palestinians" and were asked to go back to "Palestine". And now when being European and white is bad, Jews are suddenly white and European (and should leave "Palestine" obviously).

I don't see how Jews were ever anything but white. Unless they were black Jews. But perhaps this was a response to a culture that views itself as "God's chosen people" and frowns on intermarriage with "heathens". If some white guy started calling me a heathen and implying that I'm somehow not as spiritual or some nonsense, I would probably think he was crazy. But some people might take offense. Of course, just as easily a Jew could be tolerant, liberal, and a decent guy. So this response would clearly be a bigoted generalization.

10.

It doesn't mean that according to Jewish law. A convert is as much a Jew as the child of a Jewish mother is.

And I agree that an "ancestral right" to the land is a weak argument. But who is making it? I don't. The Bible and the Quran make the claim, not I. And while I believe the claim, I don't use it as an argument.

The Zionists bought the land and fought for it when they were attacked. And middle-eastern Jews obviously cannot live anywhere else. That's a very strong argument.

Note that en-masse deportation of Hebrew-, Arabic- and Aramaic-speaking Jews to western countries is not a solution either. At some point the only solution will be for the Arabs to accept that there are and will remain Jews in the middle-east.

5.

Correct. And what's the problem? I think you attach a great importance to "blood" while arguing about something that has nothing to do with blood.

7.

Yes, I am sure. The Jewish National Fund started buying land long before World War I and continued buying land under British rule. By 1948 a part of Israel was inhabited by more Jews than Arabd and that part became the independent state of Israel.

The JNF continues managing land and cultivating it. For example, it built the irrigation systems that literally made the desert bloom. (I have seen the difference between irrigated hills and natural hills in the Judaean desert.)

If you go to Wikipedia you can see a picture of Tel Aviv in 1906: some 50 dudes standing in the desert. The Zionists bought the land from Bedouins and founded the city of Tel Aviv back when it was still the Ottoman Empire.

Baron Benjamin Rothschild financed a lot of it. That's why there are streets and even a city named after him in Israel. He bought most of the land in the north. Jewish settlement in the south began earlier.

The Negev was assigned to the Jewish state since the Bedouins who lived there were (and remain) allied with the Jews. Similarly the Druze in the north were allied with the Jews and became part of Israel. And you will find that most Arabs in northern Israel do not want their towns to become part of an Arab state now either.

The JNF is still collecting money all over the world for the Israel project.

8.

Seemed like you cared about descent. But my point is that the Jews of Israel cannot live anywhere else. They were expelled and driven out of their homes in Arab countries and fled to Israel. (Naturally they never received any help from the UN.) So what do you want them to do? Should they go back to Iraq and Egypt and get attacked individually? They do prefer fighting back.

Nobody wants to be an ethnic or religious minority in the Arab world.

Look at Sudan or Iraq and see how well non-Arabs fared under Arab rule.

11.

If you don't know what "anti-Semitic" means look in up in a dictionary.

Really? You brought up the concept of white people "stealing the homes" of hundreds of thousands of "Palestinians". So it seemed as if you saw a racial difference between two Caucasian peoples.

If you don't see a racial differece, why point out than one of the peoples is "white"? It wouldn't even matter if they were different.

(Ironically there are black Israelis, but they are all Jews.)

Ask the guys who buys "Mein Kampf"?

If you are wondering about racism in the middle east, I suggest the following experiment:

Dress up as an obvious Arab, carry an Arab flag, and walk through a city in Israel.

Then, a week later, dress up as an obvious Jew, carry the Israeli flag, and walk through a city in an Arab country.

You'll be surprised how quickly you will understand what racism and anti-Semitism are.

White supremacists see Jews as non-white. Hitler and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem saw them as non-white.

And Jews are not the only culture that frowns on intermarriage. Catholics also don't do it (if they follow their faith) and neither do Muslims. I don't see anything wrong with it.

In Israel, of course, while it isn't possible to intermarry in the country, all foreign marriages, including gay marriages are recognised. So perhaps marriage restrictions is a bad example for a criticism of Israel.

And perhaps, as your opinions suggest you don't know that much about Judaism (which somehow doesn't stop you from judging it, and I think that's a problem). Jews do not believe that non-Jews are not "spiritual enough". Jews simply believe that non-Jews are not Jewish. The fact that nations see each other as different from each other has never been a problem, until the Jews did it, when it suddenly became a valid criticism to point out that they do.

Which Jew called you a heathen?

It seems you made up a lot of stuff about Jews and Israel and Judaism and somehow believe that you have a right to criticise Judaism for whatever you didn't care to look up before accepting it as fact.

As for the "chosen people", I do wonder... how can a people who constitute less than 0.5% of the world population be on the news all the time? Perhaps G-d didn't chose them, but the rest of the world certainly does.

As for the "chosen people", I do wonder... how can a people who constitute less than 0.5% of the world population be on the news all the time? Perhaps G-d didn't chose them, but the rest of the world certainly does.

I don't see how being on the news and being "God's chosen people" relate. And news happens all over the world. Certainly being recognized by institutions that run stories about bats stuck to space shuttles and pet chimpanzees attacking middle aged women does not mean much.

Which Jew called you a heathen?

It seems you made up a lot of stuff about Jews and Israel and Judaism and somehow believe that you have a right to criticise Judaism for whatever you didn't care to look up before accepting it as fact.

What did I make up? The thing about the Middle East being divided up after WWII and Israel given to the Jews. No, I did not make this up. How much of the story it explains I now wonder, since you demonstrated an expertise in that area with your response. Obviously though, it is not important, or the news would have told me about it. And isn't this entire post supposed to be about how you do not like the news?

You admitted the adherence to a policy of intramarriage. For the record, I am not Catholic or Muslim, but if they too suffer from that sort of centrist mentality, then certainly they could also alienate the people around them. And you want to use the Bible and the Quran as ancestral justification? Fine, that's where I took the word heathen from. In your defense, that is not solely a Jewish word. But it is certainly not my word. I want nothing to do with it.

And perhaps, as your opinions suggest you don't know that much about Judaism (which somehow doesn't stop you from judging it, and I think that's a problem).

I only judge the sense of racial superiority. I believe that if you were to tell me you don't think Jews are better than non-Jews, you would be lying. And more to the point, I believe this notion is absurd because:

A) I believe Jews see themselves as members of a superior race.

1) membership can be inherited

2)  A Jew (admittedly one who eats ham) once told me he thought it was a race. 

Any time in the past I have seen "race", it has meant blood. (This, I believe, is why you thought I was obsessed with blood. You admit is has nothing to do with blood. Can you admit Judaism is not a race?) 

So my delimma boils down to being frustrated that racially identical people think of themselves as being heritably different, while at the same time accepting converts. It doesn't add up, and I am missing the explanation.

Ask the guys who buys "Mein Kampf"?

I would. But that guys is a either hopeless academic, or he is a hopeless crazy. Why hate Jews? Have they done something to me I don't know about?

Really? You brought up the concept of white people "stealing the homes" of hundreds of thousands of "Palestinians". So it seemed as if you saw a racial difference between two Caucasian peoples.

Why? How does it alienate other people if Catholics and Muslims only marry within faith? I don't understand. I couldn't care less about whom other people want to marry.

Jews are a people. Technically Jews are a number of tribes of a people. There exist other tribes and collections of tribes (like the tribe of Dan and the Samaritans). The actual people's name is "Israel" or "Israelites" for the members.

Israelites have a language (Hebrew) and sometimes a country (the Land of Israel). Israelites also have their own religion, like most ancient peoples used to have before the spread of universal religions like Christianity and Islam.

I don't think that Jews are better than non-Jews. Judaism teaches pretty much the opposite. Jewish belief is that G-d chose the Israelites to demonstrate His power because the miracles wouldn't have been as impressive if He had chosen a strong and powerful people. Jewish belief also says that G-d chose other peoples for other tasks.

And if you believe that inheriting membership (which is completely normal when it comes to a people) and the fact that Israelites are a people (or a "race" if you insist), somehow proves that Jews see themselves as superior to others, you are an idiot.

I don't understand your fascination with a people while at the same time finding it odd that they would see themselves as a chosen people. G-d might have chosen the Israelites for some task, I don't know. But the rest of the world surely have chosen the Jews for something and the world proves it every day.

Iranians are an Indo-European people, like Germans and Indians. Persians are one Iranian tribe, if you will. All Iranians speak languages related to German, Latin, and Hindi. "Iran" means "Land of the Aryans" in Persian/Farsi.

Iranians are not Arabs.

The Iranian Empire collapsed in 1979. It had existed for over 2500 years, albeit under Greek rule for a few hundred years and then under Arab rule for a few decades later. For the last 1000 years Iran was independent again.

Arabs are a Semitic people, like Israelites (Jews) and Aramaeans and Assyrians. (The Kurds are an Iranian people.)

Semitic peoples belong to a greater group of people who speak the Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) languages. These cultures stretch from North-Africa (Berbers) to Egypt and south via Semitic peoples (Ethiopeans and Eritraeans) to Kushitic tribes (Somalia) and from Egypt eastwards via Israelites, Aramans, Assyrians to the Arabs southwest of Iraq.

Most people in the region tend to hate whoever killed more than a hundred thousand of your people, or, if that isn't possible, the Jews.

Iranians and Arabs have fought many bloody wars, the last one in the 1980s with more than two million dead.

Skin colour has nothing to do with it.

He pretty much started it.

(Note that while the Zionists bought the land they settled on before 1948, after they were attacked they tended to keep the land they won in the war, offered it back in exchange for peace and were told that there will be no peace ever since.)

God always picks the minority.  God is the God of the underdog for one thing.  He always picks the "losers" as his own to do his glory.  Christ himself later said that it's the broad way that leads to destruction.  It's the narrow way that is the right way.  But when it came to Israel from the get go God said this about them:

"The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people his treasured possession.  The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples for you were the fewest of all peoples.  But it was because the Lord lvoed you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighy hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.  Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations....  Deut 7:7-9

The stories that have come out of Israel since 1948 have been astounding.  The fact that the Jews are still here after wandering around for 2,000 years scattered all over kingdom come with no country of their own shows that something special is going on here.    If people can't see that there's something divine here, a plan in the works, I don't know what to say.